What is the goal of integrating mentally retarded people in normal schools?

Discussion in 'Science & Society' started by Saven, Jun 16, 2009.

  1. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    I'd be curious if any of the liberal doo-gooders here would suggest the same liberal approach to keeping and coddling retards and physically disabled in the practice of animal husbandry? I mean, would y'all doo-gooders suggest that horse breeders keep all the retarded and phy dis horses born? How 'bout milk cows that provide the milk y'all drink? Dogs?

    My problem with all the retards is the special and dedicated cost to society. I don't want to pay for someone else's kids ...and I damned sure don't want to be FORCED to pay for 'em. If y'all liberal doo-gooders want to keep those retards and phys dis, then why don't y'all volunteer to pay for 'em ...WITHOUT asking for my help?

    You have 'em, you want 'em, you fuckin' keep 'em and pay for 'em.

    Baron Max
     
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  3. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

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    Baron Max I'm on your side, I'm a libertarian first of all.

    Secondly the only rational option is the euthanasia of such people; now hear me out.

    The reason that many people oppose this is an emotional reason, because it is generally "morally" appalling.......although if one only allows a sliver of logic and reason into their minds, they find that such people are ultimately useless and the only logical choice is to remove them.

    But we aren't creatures of pure logic, we are creatures of emotion and compassion, and hatred, as well.
     
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  5. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    I know what you're trying to say, Norsefire, but there's much more to it than simple compassion and emotion. Look at how humans treat such principles in the animal world ...a zoo would never allow a retarded or physically disabled zoo animal to live.
    A rancher would never allow a retarded or phys disabled beef or milk animal to live.
    A breeder of champion dogs would never allow retarded genes to pollute his chain of champion breeders.
    See? Logic and reason play important roles in such places ....except with humans! When humans enter the picture, humans lose any and all concepts of logic and reasoning! Why? Aren't humans just other animals? Or have humans instilled some supernatural aspect into the human animal? Hmm?

    Baron Max
     
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  7. Enmos Valued Senior Member

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    Because humans seek to control and suppress. And if they cannot, ridicule or destroy.
     
  8. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

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    I agree Baron Max. People that support sustaining such people are being irrational....although, we're irrational beings.
     
  9. CutsieMarie89 Zen Registered Senior Member

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    Farmers keep mentally disabled livestock all of the time. Not being a genius doesn't really have much bearing on if you make milk or not. Of course like Norsefire said most people aren't emotionally attached to their livestock or show dogs, so of course they don't mind getting rid of them, but if it was their child or even themselves that were deemed "unfit" they might have a slightly different opinion.
     
  10. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

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    An irrational opinion, then, but nonetheless I never claimed human beings were always rational.
     
  11. PsychoTropicPuppy Bittersweet life? Valued Senior Member

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    I think the goal is to make the normal folks more tolerant towards people who are dependent on help of others. It's a way to raise the tolerance towards people who were not so gifted by nature like others. It's understandable that the first reaction when you see someone who doesn't look like a normal person is stupefaction or even shock since you don't see "deformed" folks on a daily basis thus you're not used to the sight and for some people this might be a shock.

    In spite of whatever their disabilities are they are still humans and locking them away, or separating them from the normal crowd isn't that good. It will only raise the intolerance for disabled people.

    One thing is though that I wouldn't put mentally disabled people in the same class as normal kids as this will only slow down, or interrupt learning speed. But I'm not against putting them in the same school for normal kids, but in special classes. It's a good way for kids to see that there are also other people in this world. People our society tries to hide, etc. It's a good way also to learn how to communicate with disabled people and how to react to them without offending them, etc.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2009
  12. CutsieMarie89 Zen Registered Senior Member

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    I don't thin it would really slow a class down all that much. When I was in elentary school I used to fell like I was in a class full of mentally slow children, but I wasn't. They were normal, but they moved way too slow for me, so I got special attention on the side because I was one of the few that was more advanced. A teacher can take out time for one or two slow students, they used to do it all of the time for my brother, who has a learning disability.
     
  13. Ophiolite Valued Senior Member

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    Poor little Norsefire. Scared of things that are different. Scared of emotions. Scared of that cooperation and friendship he sees in others, but can never quite share in. Poor Norsefire.
     
  14. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

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    I never said the rational option was always the good one; only that it is an irrational choice to allow the disabled to live.

    And it's interesting how, instead of disagreeing with me, you proceed only to insult me. Also you are being a hypocrite; I'm the one that was specifically stating the importance of emotion in culture in the "homosexuality" thread in the religion subforum and it was you all Mr. Rational on me, yet I was saying how we often make emotional choices instead of rational ones.
     
  15. PsychoTropicPuppy Bittersweet life? Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, but here we're talking about mentally challenged people, possibly as well physically disabled. Chances are that they will require special attention and that not just in the sense of education. And if someone is really mentally challenged then no matter how much educational attention you will pay them they most probably won't be able to cope with the subjects at hand in a normal class and therefore need special education which was made especially for mentally disabled people, and a supervisor who knows how to handle children like that. It's not a given for every teacher and professor out there to be able to cope, or even explain to a child like that the information at hand.

    The schools could set up special class hours once or twice a week though where mentally, physically disabled and normal children will have class together and under psychological supervision will learn to communicate with each others and try to learn to understand each others differences and also get introduced to how to help each others. This would be a more adequate approach in my humble opinion, because you can't just throw a disabled child into a class full of normal children either. Chances are that it will become subject of psychological and physical discrimination.
     
  16. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    I was born and raised on a farm ...and we had some "mentally disabled" livestock sometimes. And as soon as we discovered it, they were sent to the slaughter house! No one in his right mind would want to keep a "sick" animal in their herd and fuck up the gene pool of the whole herd.

    ...and yet that's precisely what most of y'all are suggesting that we do with the human race and the disabled and/or mentally ill humans. Y'all ain't usin' ye're good sense! Why?

    I think that's a cute little sentiment use to turn a discussion from logic to the emotional, it's a sad method of discussion. It's no different to asking us to allow the family and close friends of accused murderers and rapists to make the judgement of guilt or innocence, or to set the penalty if convicted. You wouldn't suggest something lke that, would you? Yet you do it with the disabled and the mentally ill. Why?

    Baron Max
     
  17. justwonderingjoe Gosh,the weather is nice today Registered Senior Member

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    What is your idea about the parents of mentally retarded children? Should they be taken out of the gene pool also? How about the retarded child's blood brother, sister, aunt, uncle, cousins... where does it end? Please enlighten?
     
  18. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    not to mention that not all mentally retardation actually comes from genetics. hypoxia, head truma ect can all cause brain damage
     
  19. Ophiolite Valued Senior Member

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    Please note: Baron's argument is that there is no significant difference between murderers, rapists and persons with a low IQ, or some significant physical disability.
    What an excellent point Max. Think of the money you could save by leaving the seriously wounded GIs on the battlefield. They are just going to be a burden on society and clearly if they were smarter they wouldn't have got shot in the first place. (Or in the second place, if there is more than one entry wound.)
     
  20. tuberculatious Banned Banned

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    yes.

    I could ask the obvious question now which allows for two distinct answers.
     
  21. Xerxes asdfghjkl Valued Senior Member

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    Norse, could you explain what you mean by 'greater
    good'? Are you using it as a moral argument for euthanasia/abortion?
     
  22. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

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    More like a logical argument; arguments from morality are something you'll rarely see from me.

    Although realize this is only an argument in principle; I don't actually support eugenics, even though it's logical.
     
  23. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    It's about mentally and physically disabled, not about the gene pool per se. So, no, the parents, etc wouldn't be bothered. It would be just like a farmer or rancher who discovers one of his cows gave birth to a mentally or physically disabled calf ...he doesn't kill the cow! Nor all of her other offspring! ...LOL!!

    Where does it end? At the mentally or physically disabled ....there's no need to go any further. Even if, for example, a couple continued to have "defective" kids, then the society should have their reproductive organs ripped and thrown away ...but they shouldn't be killed.

    Everyone is being sooooooo emotional about this issue that it amazes me ...and makes me laugh, too. Anyone with any sense at all knows that what I and Norsefire are suggesting is perfectly logical and reasonable. Y'all's emotions and ye're mamby-pamby liberalism is what's keepin' you from admitting the truth of the logic of it.

    And it's funny ....in any other argument, the same people would be making comments about a person's argument not being logical or reasonable, etc. But here? ...LOL!

    Baron Max
     

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