What is the goal of integrating mentally retarded people in normal schools?

Discussion in 'Science & Society' started by Saven, Jun 16, 2009.

  1. visceral_instinct Monkey see, monkey denigrate Valued Senior Member

    I think Norsefire has a personality disorder rendering him incapable of empathy with others.

    I think the best treatment for this terrible disability is euthanasia.
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  3. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

    Oh I agree. I'm only arguing from the position of what is "for the greater good"

    But honestly, forget the greater good. What matters is your own individual happiness.
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  5. Enmos Valued Senior Member

    Nah.. he just thinks it's cool. He'll get over it eventually (hopefully).
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  7. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

    I don't think eugenics or euthanasia is cool. I'm a libertarian. I'm only saying they are "for the greater good" if that is what is desired.

    Although as I said, to hell with the greater good. I care about my own happiness and only that.
  8. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

    I think it's obvious what humans want .........to nuture and collect all of the major faults of the human animal and try to keep them all alive by stealing the wealth from some in order to give to those few sick people.

    Look at the world today ....look at the vast numbers of "diseased" people being allowed to live, being kept alive just for the sake of keeping them alive. We've seriously fucked up the human gene pool, that's for sure!

    I still keep wondering who's going to take care of all those retarded people when the parents are gone?

    Baron Max
  9. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

    We're weakening ourselves by allowing the weak to live. And that sounds monstrous but as I said, perhaps it is necessary to do what must be done? Although most people don't have the stomach to do it.
  10. ripleofdeath Registered Senior Member


    that is an interesting discussion point because currently the berny madof(bernt heart mad adolf hitler) guy is getting free medical cover while all his victims get thrown out on the street with no housing and no medical care.

    soo everyone in the usa is doing it already they just do not want to admit it and want to be able to blame others for it instead of being accountable for who they vote for.

    problem is all the parents try and sugar coat their lack of caring when their own kids come of age and start asking questions.
    thus the cycle of lies is created into self validation of lies to support themselves in their own household.
    self delusion is possibly the only thing stopping many from jumping off a bridge.

    how berny madofs wife can go on living in her lap of luxury with her 2.5 million dollars knowing children have been killed from lack of medical care created by her husband is a little beyond me short of some hard core drugs.
    best of luck to the ignorant bitch i would not trade places with her for all the money in the world.

    i forgot to mention all the war vets who are suffering and getting their health insurance canceled left right and center who have to decide between paying for medicine and paying the rent and food budget.

    i know this personally as i have been in email contact for some years with such people and they really do make the usa look like the sick cold hearted psychopath that the country has grown up to be.

    barak has his work cut out for him, but knowing the other side of the house(government) is populated with people who would rather pay for a new cold war than support war veterans who are living with life long injurys must be hard to stomach.
  11. baftan ******* Valued Senior Member

    Three things are important and necessary:

    1) No one should be left behind. If we start leaving what we call "not normal" behind, the definition may arbitrarily extended to who knows where. We can not develop the idea of isolation in order to create a greater good. So principally, we must allow every human to every opportunity.
    2) What we call "normal" human children must know that they are not living in a world or society of "perfection". They must know what is actually going on, preferably through first hand experience. So they can see the issues of humanity with all its reality and may develop solutions.
    3) We can never know, no matter how handicapped it can be, what happens when a human brain can interact with the environment. And mental environments can also bring opportunity for any individual and this may or may not produce an outcome that can be benefitted by greater humanity.

    These are principles. But I would like to add a final thing: Imagine that this person is you. You are aware of the fact that you are not as capable as others for certain tasks or activities. But you are human and somehow you sense or be aware of the fact that your fellow humans are seeing you as "dispensible" for a "greater good". You are excluded from the "greater good". How would you feel?
    - "We do not feel when we think about the greater good, we just follow the most logical strategy".
    Do you, really?
  12. Ophiolite Valued Senior Member

    Good question Max.....Who looks after you?

    And yet you continue to avoid addressing the point that you are the one who is showing multiple signs of weakness; you are the one who is so distant from perfection; you are the one who should, by your own rules, be eliminated.
    Why are you avoiding this? Is this avoidance evidence for yet another disability? Do you also lack the ability to comprehend a simple argument?
  13. Meursalt Comatose Registered Senior Member

    Hard decisions are a fact of life, Oph. You only need to work in a large corporation for a length of time to see the result of those decisions not being made to know the damage it can cause.
    I work in an environment where people are incapable of making them, due to the prevalence of emotional opinions like yours.
    Where do you think the rot started?

    What do you consider to be "contributing to society" anyway? I can guess, but I'd rather hear it firsthand.

    Fraggle summed it up, really.
    I've been there too. And I'm damned if I'm going to be led to think that I should have been held down to the level of the lowest common denominator, or even the median - or that any children I probably will never have should be either.

    I could make all sorts of comments on your choice of "retard basher" as a user title right now... But I'll refrain. Out of politeness. You know.
    Oh dear. Did I just make one?

    You know, the more I think about that, the more I begin to realise I don't want to anymore. I think I might even agree with your spelling of it with a lower case "a" as opposed to a capital.

    One only needs to look at your posts here to see where the current trend towards the normalisation of mediocrity is leading. Take a good look. You are what you're advocating.
  14. Ophiolite Valued Senior Member

    What? You seem to think that constitutes some kind of an argument. So you, apparently, have worked in large corporations where hard decisions were not made. What do these hard business decisions have to do with the topic under discussion? Clearly you think there is a connection. Please share it with us.
    (For the record I have worked in large corporations for well over thirty years. I have also seen the damage that can be done when hard decisions are made with scant regard for human values.)

    Curiouser and curiouser. My opinions may be expressed emotionally, but they are not derived emotionally. Perhaps you lack the intellectual resources to appreciate this unified dichotomy.

    As a decision maker in a large corporatation I have had no difficulty in making 'hard decisions'. Perhaps you'd like to cite an example of what you think of as a hard decision that gets delayed by the decision makers.

    Have you stopped beating your wife?
    What rot?
    Behaving in a cooperative, proactive manner, that furthers the economic, physical and spiritual wellbeing of all members of society and does not take advantage of anyone.

    Now that's pretty damn generic waffle, but it's as good as you can get from a waffle loaded generic question of the type you asked. If you want rock hard specifics, ask rock hard questions, not mamby-pamby generalist ones.

    You poor bastard. You are so locked in your little world of superiority that you cannot even see the benefits to you and your children of learning to work and play with people of diverse backgrounds, skills and intellect. I'm sorry you have chosen this path that restricts your own development in such crucial areas. But it is your choice and you must now live with the consequences.

    Not a very effective one. I haven't used the 'retard basher' subtitle for a while. If I recall correctly the retards I was referring to were persons such as yourself who had poorly developed social awareness. i.e. people who ought to have the intellect to know better, but have chosen to go on a different path. You'll just have to live with the consequences of being laughed at. I'm sure you'll do just fine.
  15. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

    If we, as a society, integrate the mentally and physically handicapped into our society, shouldn't we expect that they should be able to care for themselves like the rest of the members of society?

    Normal kids finish school, turn 18 or so, and they're usually out on their own earning a living and making a life for themselves. The retards should be able to do that, too. If they can, then fine. If not, ......? Then they're a burden on society.

    Baron Max
  16. Meursalt Comatose Registered Senior Member

    I would have thought that someone of your vast intellect would have made the connection without prompting. But I'll indulge you.
    Base causality, Ophiolite.
    Here's the question. What does pandering to the median (being overly fair, there) denominator lead to, in reality? Do those who are dissuaded from making decisions early in life ever really learn to make them later on?
    If so, what is it in their their personal makeup which enable them to make them? it wouldn't be... superiority, by any chance?
    Let us get a little emotional. Personal. Do you think your children will be able to?

    Your opinions are emotional. That is something you need to admit, or I will not bother with you any further.
    For the sake of further discussion, though, I'll ask a question. If you do not think your opinions are derived emotionally, please explain your reasoning for them. I've got all night. Pending further developments.

    A whole new thread, why bother, and all that. Accept it - I'm there. If you are, as you say, a decision maker, then you know this. If not.... then my point is proven.

    Now you're just being a dickhead. I don't have one. I had one once, but I had to let her go.
    Now go and figure out what you're going to post about why I don't have one anymore, and make it as humorous as possible so as to maximise the sympathy effect.
    Apparently you need that support.

    Go back and look at context. I'm terribly sorry, I do have a tendency to think that those I address will be able to keep up.

    Take a look around you. Not just where you live, but everywhere else. What has it achieved?

    I'm terribly sorry. I'll pander to the exact problem you're addressing... that all society must be able to understand what you're talking about.
    Actually, no. I won't.

    Beg to differ. But you must. You're so busy trying to learn and develop your children in this "diverse environment" you offer that they will never learn what it is to be more than they are told they should be.
    My kids, should there be any, will be taught the limitations of whatever it is you are offering. I say "you" because you're..... a consensus. Little more than that.
    As for living with kids with limited intellect... maybe. They will be pointed towards the befits to themselves of tolerance towards others.
    But for you to say those kids will have anything to teach mine is ridiculous. And for mine to be placed in a school where my kids would be taught to twiddle their thumbs while everyone else struggles to catch up - well... you know. Fuck you.

    "A while" being what... a week or two? I have to admit I'm not here that often. Lately, yes, But I've hardly used that time to check up to see if you've changed your user title. I've never seen you as anything more than a barometer. It does seem to me, though, that you used it for quite some time. And anyway.... that wasn't the point. Are you saying I need to point it out to you? I won't, you know. I'm not actually talking to you, any more than you're talking to me. I'm quite prepared to be laughed at. You, on the other hand, have spent your entire life ensuring that you are not. At least not by the majority. Your armour is clear.

    I don't really think I need to say more about that.

    Good to know that your "retard basher" only applies to your particular subset of what a "retard" applies to though. Here's another question... are those you perceive as being "retards" only those who don't see things from your point of view? Hmm? Or have you abandoned that line of thought?
    It's only a question. Don't feel pressured to answer it. Somewhat rhetorical, you know.
  17. Ophiolite Valued Senior Member

    Remember to keep that promise.
    Remember also that it is people like you who give retards a bad name.
  18. Meursalt Comatose Registered Senior Member

    I'm not the one denying it, pinhead. You did.

    And I've never claimed to be a retard, therefore I cannot give them a bad name.
    Unless you feel a need to associate me with them to make yourself feel better about having nothing else to offer.
  19. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

    It's important for you all to remember that I'm not actually suggesting what I'm talking about. I'm only saying that it would be a justified move if one is to better the species as a whole, after careful deliberation among society over what qualifies as "disability"
  20. Ophiolite Valued Senior Member


    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    That took you no time at all to break your promise.
    Let's review what just happened. Perhaps one of your carers can explain it to you.
    1. You said "Your opinions are emotional. That is something you need to admit, or I will not bother with you any further."
    2. My response implicitly states I shall not admit that, for it is untrue.
    3. Therefore you have just committed publicly not to bother with me any further.
    4. Yet here you are, one post and a less than an hour later 'bothering' me again.

    I give you ten out of ten for consistency: you are not just dumb some of the time.

    Well you wouldn't, would you? It's pretty obvious to the rest of us though.

    Let's just analyse a small portion on what passes for thought in your vocabulary. Somewhere along the line you introduced a complaint (unsubstantiated and demonstrably untrue) that large corporations have trouble making 'hard decisions' (such decisions and such hardness being totally undefined, as befits your preference for warm fuzzy outrage, over cold hard facts.) You asked this question:
    What does pandering to the median (being overly fair, there) denominator lead to, in reality? Do those who are dissuaded from making decisions early in life ever really learn to make them later on?

    I mean what a bunch of ****ing balls. This is nonsense on so many levels it could be used as a case study in a psychology course.
    1. Nothing that relates to integrating those with disabilities into the mainstream requires that people defer decisions.
    2. Arguably the process of integrating those with disabilities into the mainstream requires more decisions, at more levels, before, during and quite possibly after such integration has occured.
    3. Integrating the disabled into society is not pandering to the median. The fact that you think so is evidence of gross ignorance (or possibly just simple simple mindedness) on your part.

    In short your question reveals an appalling lack of understanding of almost everything to do with the issue.

    Now please remember your promise and stop bothering with me. I have a low threshold for your brand of stupidity.
  21. tuberculatious Banned Banned

    i think they are trying to get the message across that drugs are bad. Do drugs and you end up like them.
  22. Meursalt Comatose Registered Senior Member

    What promise was that, Oph? You keep going on about that, but I don't recall making one. Got any more emoticons to inflict on me for emphasis?

    All that aside, I will fuck with you until I feel disinclined to do it any further. I am rapidly approaching that point. Your limitations are becoming clearer by the post, and it's fairly obvious that my initial assessment of you was fairly accurate - you're nothing more than a barometer.

    I am aware you have a similar opinion of me. I have no problem with that.
    But you do. Don't you. Mr "Retard Basher", according to his own tender sensibilities.

    I'm glad you took the time to make my response to you point one.
    bloody coward. Do I need to take the time to add another quote and renumber all these points, or are you just going to continue to backpedal with your hands out in supplication?

    Here's what you said :
    And here, we're back to your first point.
    Now start again. And this time, don't redirect or attempt to hide behind smokescreens.
    Ir your opinions are expressed emotionally, then they are emotional opinions. What, do you make an objective decision and then express it emotionally or something? Is that what you're trying to convey here?
    We could start a whole new thread on objective criticism, but we'd end up back here anyway, so it does appear rather pointless, does it not?

    About as demonstrably untrue as being demonstrably true. I thought you said you'd been thirty years or so in large corporations? And you've never experienced this?
    I've been in them almost as long as you, and I see it frequently.

    ... but you're now trying to hide behind what was initially supposed to be a minor point. I should have realised from the beginning that you'd fail to make the connection and argue minutiae. I probably did, actually, but these things happen. I expect too much.

    The problem with cold, hard, facts, Oph, is that they are only facts according to the observer and do not give an overall picture.

    Nice switch, though. I rather thought that your stance here was the more emotional one. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
    Try to, anyway. As you have been.

    Ah yes. Psychology. The "science" of explaining points of view differing from the norm as aberrations.

    ... uh, it hasn't been attempted very often? It's difficult to make any accurate assessment on it's potential impact on society when it is not yet a common course of action? The potential ramifications won't be known for years yet, unless you have foresight, which appears to be something noticeably lacking in those like you?

    Which decisions, though?
    Elaborate, Oph. Detail. Tell me what decisions are potentially being made as a result of emotionally-based integration. Or are you content to believe that those decisions made will coincide with what you already believe?

    We were not talking about integrating them into society, Oph. We were talkig about integrating them into schools. Where our up and coming are being moulded. You think you can redirect by changing a word or two? Think again.

    The integration of retarded children into mainstream schooling is pandering to the median, if not the lowest, common denominator.
    You're still denying that? I think it might be up to you to disprove, not for me to prove. You have a job ahead of you, though.
    Take it on.

    Blah. You mean I lack your understanding, and nothing more than that.

    Again with this nebulous "promise" I apparently made.
    And I will bother with you as long as I continue to gain a sense of amusement at your intellectual limitations. Deal with it, put me on ignore or just shut up. Don't yammer about your "low threshold" unless you're in a position to do something about it, because without the means to back up a threat you look more a fool than you already do.

    Now go find solace in majority opinion. Like you always do. Look on the bright side, Oph. More people agree with you than would with me. That's your justification, isn't it.
  23. Ophiolite Valued Senior Member

    Last post for the forseeable future. You are boring me and frightening the neigbours.
    That was the part where you said "That is something you need to admit, or I will not bother with you any further."
    I then told you I would not admit it. Under those circumstances you have said you will not bother with me any further. You have commited not to bother with me any further. You have implicitly promised not to bother with me any further.

    I already explained this to you in my previous post, but it seems you were too thick to understand. You know, that's what I really don't like about you: not that you are thick, but that you have no idea of how thick you actually are. It's bloody frustrating for the rest of us.

    I have become convinced, through many years of study that evolution occurs and that natural selection plays a key role in the process. That is my firm opinion. I arrived at this opinion logically, systematically and scientifically. When in the mire of a discussion with a creationist I often express that opinion with considerable emotion.
    This is a single example that clearly demonstrates that your premise is wrong and therefore your conclusion is wrong.

    Perhaps proper companies are smart enough not to employ you.
    Now I have seen individual managers struggle with hard decisions. They do not remain in their positions for very long, or they are educated in the art of decision making. The company has no difficulty making the difficult decisions, because they will be made at one level or another.

    I'm pleased the other items meant something to you.

    Really. I would have thought not, but if that's true it is at least encouraging. But if I was truly more in tune I would be making a seven figure salary, not a six figure one.

    Now, that's it Mersault. I don't think you are an idiot. I know you are. That's an objective assessment, arrived at without emotion. The emotion part comes in when I observe that your idiocy really ticks me off. Since you don't understand what a promise is and apparently won't stop responding I shall just have to put you back on Ignore. I shall probably leave you there this time.

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