What is the goal of integrating mentally retarded people in normal schools?

Discussion in 'Science & Society' started by Saven, Jun 16, 2009.

  1. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

    And by the same token, who has the right to judge that some disabled or retarded kid should get more government money than some regular, normal kid?

    I think there's lots of people who might need some extra help now and then. And if that's so, then since there's so fuckin' many liberal doo-gooders in the world, then all the people should have to do is ask ....and the liberal doo-gooders would send money by the freakin' truckload!!! ...since they care so freakin' much, right????

    But that's just the point of this discussion .....you should NOT have to deal with it, it should NOT be 'that's life'. We should all fight things like that, and it's getting worse and worse in the USA now. President Osama is pushing to give tons of money to every freakin' "needy" group that it's becoming difficult to even keep track of it all. And maybe that's what he's intending ...that we'll just finally give up and let him give our money away.

    Baron Max
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  3. ripleofdeath Registered Senior Member


    i am fairly up to date with western political systems.
    ive been following politics for close to 30 years now.

    while i admire the UKs' general cohesion with its social welfare system(nhs included) i prefer the old German system and the (i think Norwegian) system and think we should move towards free total health care.

    the only reason countries like the USA cant(don't have a move toward it without lots of protesting) have free health care is because they have soo much corruption and the country was built on theft and deception.(how the west was won[cannibalistic and genocidal business practices mixed with slave labour in massive proportions])

    NOTE: Barak just released plans for a change in the health care laws which will make employers accountable for paying a fair rte for health care to stop them from forcing the tax payer to pick up the bill for their short fall in health insurance.
    Great idea !
    The common low wage earning tax payer in the usa has been funding the massive opulent health services given to the upper class for far too long.
    He is the first american president i can see a future in(a positive future for the country).

    even a monarchy is based on socialism (tax collected by the crown to support and protect the kingdom).

    i personally advocate free education and think there IS a p[lace for private education but perceive the current system as being a slap up job rather than something purpose built.

    setting all that aside for a moment to re focus on where we find ourselves in this new age, we are now at a point where we know soo much there is very little left to doubt.
    we know what happens when we have sex
    we know how babies are made
    we know what contraception is
    we know how much it costs to raise a child
    we know how we need to manage commerce to ensure a job for that child
    we know what health care is likely needed for that child
    we know what is likely to happen when we do or don't do a lot of things.
    we also know having unprotected sex is going to lead to unwanted pregnancy

    what has only just been realised(woken up to thanks to people like me deliberately upsetting many parents) that the vast majority of children are unplanned.

    we know soo much so it is time we stopped making excuses.

    we have finally come to the age of accountability (i have only just started mentioning this in the last few months).

    Socialism IS NOT about not being self accountable just as much as capitalism is not about making slaves.

    People need to be self accountable for what they are given.
    it is a trading relationship.
    i agree to not go about society killing people and building evil empires in exchange for them not allowing their children to run a-muck and destroy my life and society at large while i agree to help pay for their children as long as their children are raised in a manner i agree with.

    i am not going to help pay for other peoples kids if they wont raise them in a manner i agree with or have more kids than is reasonably affordable and manageable.

    the days of more than 3 kids in one family are over.


    Currently about 40% of all parents in the western world actively think it is not their job to have a personal relationship with their children.
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  5. mike47 Banned Banned

    People with disabilities have special schools . Of course everyone needs education and disability is no excuse to discriminate against anyone. Hey...no one created himself by himself . So if you are healthy and good looking, you did not contribute to that . If you are retarded and sick...it is not your fault . We were all created .
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  7. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

    Agreed ....but not paid for by taxpayer dollars! Tax money is supposed to be for "the common welfare" ...NOT special people.

    I agree. And I don't think anyone on this thread is advocating discrimination at all ...even me! But for the society to pay additional money to support some kid with physical and/or mental disabilities is simply wrong! You want a kid, you pay for him!

    Baron Max
  8. ripleofdeath Registered Senior Member


    this is the irony of the american system.

    compulsory schooling,
    but no compulsory housing ?
    no compulsory health care ?
    whats that about ? hahahahahahah

    you people are soo messed up !

    you impose all these laws and regulations on people but don't support them with housing food or shelter.

    morally speaking your no better than a military dictatorship.
  9. mike47 Banned Banned

    The state is the guardian of those who can not look after themselves . This principle is well alive in all civilized societies including the U.S.A.
  10. ripleofdeath Registered Senior Member


    now your just talking nonsense !

    the usa does not have state housing that i am aware of.

    do you have a link to a government web site that shows they have state housing and state welfare/food and clothing etc... ?
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2009
  11. mike47 Banned Banned

    Yes the U.S.A. has plenty of social servives all around the nation .
    Yes they have state housing, welfare, food and clothing...etc.
    They even have special programs for drug and alcohol addicts .
    It did not become the strongest nation on earth for nothing .

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  12. ripleofdeath Registered Senior Member


    where are the links to the government web sites showing their state housing schemes and social welfare ?

    how the usa became one of the strongest countries in the world is by cheating stealing and breaking laws while clamping down on competition.

    do some reading on the pre WWII blockade of japan.
    maybe the iran contra arm sales ?
    who makes land mines ?
    who produces the most small arms ?

    what type of weapons did the bonita banana hit squads use ?

    what did the descendants of the bush family sell to the nazis during WWII that was used to exterminate the jews ?

    how was the railroad contracts won ?

    how was land seized from the natives ?

    how were alcohol empires built during the prohibition ?

    how did the cotton barons maintain such wealth from using slaves and illegalising marijuana ?

    dude ! your not even in the same library forget the same bookshelf.

    need i mention hurricane Katrina and the gangs operating inside the homeless shelters with no food or water being supplied by the state ?

    the usa was built on corruption and greed and the global credit melt down(and 9/11) was all its chickens coming home to roost.

    if you cant learn from the past you are doomed to repeat it.
  13. WillNever Valued Senior Member

    There is state housing in the USA, draqon. I'm not sure where you live but I live in the USA, and we do have it for disadvantaged people. In most locales in our country, people call them "the projects."
  14. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    There is certainly state housing in the USA for the mentally ill. However, it's not mandatory. Since the late 1960s the government has not had the right to force people into institutions. Many mentally ill people would rather take their chances on the street (or the beach) living free, than live in what they consider a cage, so we have homeless people here.
  15. ripleofdeath Registered Senior Member

    soo... whats the 411 on the tent cities being created with men women and children forced to sleep out in parks with no sewerage and no clean water and no health care or security ?

    the article

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    for shame you self acclaimed leaders of the world
    your back yard is filled with your own skeletons and now overflowing into your front yard.
  16. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member


    public housing or not there will still be homeless people. Some will be by choice, some will be because they system is limited and others will be because of other reasons. Some of these reasons can be fixed by goverments but others cant.

    High quality, freely avilable mental health care is a first step in reducing homeless its true (though i fail to see how FR can say that all homeless people are homeless because of mental health problems, some certainly are ECONOMIC) but its not the only issue.

    A bigger problem is the US system which time limits unemployment payments. This is just plain MEAN especially when concidering that of all the people who want to work AT LEAST 5% are delibratly kept unemployed in order to keep down intrest rates
  17. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

    What? Is that all you want the taxpayers to give away for free? Why not have the taxpayers give money for food and housing and clothes and entertainment and condoms and video games and ....well, hell, are you sure that the taxpayers shouldn't give them all spending money, too? How 'bout wine and beer for parties on Saturday night? And decorations for Christmas trees?

    Hell, Asguard, c'mon, surely you and the other bleeding heart liberals here can come up with a big, long list of things that the taxpayers would love to provide for anyone who needs it ...or is too lazy to work for it.

    Yeah, the American taxpayer should be required to pay taxes to keep people on the unemployment rolls for 50 years if they want it. Sure, why not?! Hell, let's also have the American taxpayer also pay for high-quality childcare while the unemployed parents enjoy some time spending taxpayer money at the bars and clubs.

    Baron Max
  18. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

    why not?
    the your taxes are being used (though PAYING for the reserve bank) specifically to KEEP them unemployed. Why the fuck shouldnt you pay for them to live
  19. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    It doesn't seem as if integration of special needs children in UK schools is working out too well:

    "Charlotte Leslie, who co-wrote the report, said: "These figures show what parents and carers have known for years - that the Government's so-called 'inclusion' policy has failed."

    "A total of 9,000 children were expelled from mainstream primary and secondary schools in 2005/6 - and almost 6,000 had behavioural or learning problems.

    Half of the 78,600 pupils who were suspended more than once in a single year had special needs.

    The disclosure, in a study by the Bow Group, a think-tank, will raise fresh doubts over the effectiveness of a drive by the Government to integrate pupils with special needs in ordinary schools."


    Looks like we are doing a disservice to these children but placing them in a situation they may not be able to cope with.

    Here is another one:

    "The National Union of Teachers dramatically reversed decades of support for “inclusion” and demanded a halt to the closure of special schools. It called on the Government to carry out “an urgent review of inclusion in policy and practice”.

    "The union issued a report by academics at Cambridge University, which suggested that inclusion was harming children with special needs, undermining the education of others and leaving teachers exhausted as they struggled to cope with severe behavioural and medical conditions."

    "Other pupils lost out as staff devoted excessive time to special needs children. Many students witnessed highly disturbing behaviour as special needs pupils reacted in frustration and anger to their surroundings. Teachers often delegated responsibility for special needs pupils to classroom assistants.

    Parents felt betrayed as their children’s educational needs went unmet and the children sunk into a spiral of misbehaviour that often ended in expulsion. Parents of other children were unhappy at the repeated disruptions to their education."


    So what say you Oph? Still think I'm the only 'retard' to think this idea isn't as rosy as it seems?

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  20. ripleofdeath Registered Senior Member

    yes i am well aware of the right wing economics and there mandate for compulsory 7.5 % unemployment to keep wage control in the hands of the companies.

    this economic ideology put into practice legitimises terrorism and crime.
  21. intestlol Registered Member

    I don't really believe that mentally retarded people even need an education because mentally retarded people are probably just going to grow up mopping the floors in a a restraunt and nothing more. So why even waste money on giving them an education? If the parents want to pay for the retarded kid to go to some private school for special needs kids then sure that's fine. But they should not be let into public schools. All they do is cause distractions.
  22. Yellow Jacket Registered Senior Member


    WOW. Seeing you work in a school, I would have thought you would have more empathy or understanding.

    A more appropriate way of saying things is that the child is mentally challenged or physically challenged.

    Normal? Not a fair to pull that one. Capable is the word that should be used.

    This child probably has his moments. May seem more extreme than a regular tantrum, etc. You are fostering the fear though.

    You see, many physically or mentally handicapped children can get overstimulated. Some do not understand that their sudden busts of uncontrolled emotion is frightening to others.

    This is the perfect time to teach the children understanding, compassion, tolerance. Some with a little knowledge may even come up with ways to help calm the student down or love to participate in helping with his or her education.

    Instead of TEACHERS passing judgement and demonstrating a lack of intolerance, especially to the capable students, they should take time to learn of the child's disability and the best ways of teaching the other kids and that particular student. Teach the kids what the disability is, how to best help that student when it is overstimulated, preventative measures, even what can be fun for the student.

    Intergrating these students is helpful to everyone if done properly. IT does not sound like it was done properly. I suggest you become the leader in investigating successful intergrations and stand up to the forefront. Heck, you could turn this into something very positive to your school and community.

    on a side note....my son used to be a peer mentor to students you have described. That was in 4 and 5th grade. He loved it. He would read to the students, keeping them focused, help them with their math. It was the highlight of his day. He even gave those students their rewards for doing their work. He felt so responible and proud. Every time he did this, he would come home and tell me in full detail of every second. These kids do have a sense of humor, mischeviousness, and also sweet compassion. My son was able to see those things and it has made him the deep understanding kid he is today. Not of my doing, but of his teacher showing him and teaching him that these kids are special and deserving of an education as much as him.

    Soap box? Maybe. More of a passion of mine. Have worked with kids all my life. Worked for 3 years at a highly respected school for kids with autism. Please note, I said with autism. Not autistic child. There's a difference and it matters to those who understand they have it and to thier families. Because, no matter what? They are still kids, still a human being. Still deserving of an education and for people to step outside of their little box and try to understand their world a little.
  23. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

    What level of retardation are we talking about?

    I have APD and mild ADD and I am hopefully gonna go on to become an aerospace engineer.

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