What is the enemy?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Kittamaru, Dec 16, 2017.

  1. Kittamaru Never cruel nor cowardly... Staff Member

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    What is the true enemy of good people everywhere?

    To me, it would be fear and the illogical responses it creates. It allows us as a species to be divided and for those who would manipulate us to turn us against one another, ignoring the threats on our doorstep. As we have seen time and time again, some groups exploit this continuously in order to solidify their grasp on power... Power that they really do not deserve.
     
    river likes this.
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  3. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    The very concept of "us and them" of the evil enemy and the righteous us, of tribalism, is instinctive. Slowly over the millennia we have been trying to civilize our way out of that framing. But certainly today the rich and powerful use issues of race and sex to divert attention away from their pillaging of the poor... shit there is that framing again. Ok: people use divisive issues to divert attention from important issues for which they are ultimately the cause and solution.
     
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  5. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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    A crappy living environment. I mean, growing up without internet just creates savages.
     
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  7. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    Corruption is the enemy. It means that your government isn't operating with your best interests at heart. It's not "us vs them" regarding differing views among the citizenry. It's corruption of the "representatives".
     
  8. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Corruption is universal, if there is power to accumulate then there will be corruption. A world without government will simply hand power over to warlords and "strong men", I rather have a corrupt government instead.
     
  9. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    I wonder if it is possible - even in principle - to eradicate or limit corruption.

    The voting system is not set up to have honest politicians get into office.
    They must make promises they cannot keep, or a worse politician will get voted in.
    They must do backroom deals, just to get important things done.
    It's no use saying 'I don't do back room deals' if the people you depend on say 'well I do, and the guy next to you does.'

    And, when governing hundreds of thousands, or even millions of people, a large fraction of them will not get what they want or think they deserve.
    I wonder how many citizens say 'well, I didn't get what I want, but that's understandable. Statistically, I should not expect to get what I want more than a certain fraction of times. That doesn't make my representative corrupt.'

    It's easy to say corruption is bad and corrupt people are bad, but I would be interested in hearing about a governing system that can operate without them.
     
  10. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    I'd say the enemy is tribalism.

    Once, our dozen or so members were good guys, and we all profited or lost together, with everyone else as the competitor for resources.
    Now, our tribe might be a few hundred or a few thousand - those in our personal special interest group.
    But I don't see how our tribe can encompass the whole world - unless it involved a global - external - threat to unite us.
    I think we will always have this problem as long as there is a 'we' and a 'they'.
     
  11. sweetpea Valued Senior Member

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    Is that like... ''We'' as in my family and ''they'' as in some other family? To keep my family fed and safe what would I do? Bad things?
     
  12. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Ignorance perhaps.
    Alex
     
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  13. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I suggest to folk that if big political news is filling your head to consider what real news is your attention being diverted from.

    Over here there was an extraordinary report on tax rip off by big mult national companies which was scandalous, since then we get endless babbling about politicians who hold duel citizenship seats being lost and also the pending and now passed same sex marriage legislation.
    Duel citizenship and same sex marriage are important but really a high ranking public servant could deal with such matters.
    And so the tax evasion report seems not to be placed in the " in basket " anytime soon.

    Alex.
     
  14. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    A certain amount of dealing, inducement, corruption even, is unavoidable and probably necessary.
    Like friction or dimension tolerance in a machine. No friction, it falls apart; parts fit too tight, it jams.

    Too much self-dealing, and government breaks down.
    As with a machine: too much friction, it jams; parts fit too loose, it breaks.

    In my old town, when the county or city had important events - parades, Fourth of July fireworks, anything involving an outdoor sound system - they always let bids, because of the law, and they always hired the same firm regardless of the bids. And they got a clean working system, in on time for rehearsals and out with no hassles - no feedback problems, no gear problems, no safety worries, no inaudible or undecipherable speeches, no bullshit about the bill or what was and was not specified and paid for, and generally for mid-range money - sometimes low, sometimes high. They knew the guy, the guy knew the job.

    There is no way to eliminate corruption completely without eliminating the autonomy and decision-making power of government agents and officials. And there's no way to govern without allowing that - encouraging it and depending on it, even.

    Now generally the right level of corruption is less than exists. But adopting measures to reduce it chosen by the criterion of eliminating it entirely dooms, one way or another.

    Corruption is an enemy. There are others.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2017
  15. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    "We" and "they" vary, depending on who you see as your tribe.
    I am considering
    your tribe as "those who, if they do better, you also do better",
    as opposed to "everyone else, who, if they do better, it's at best, neutral for you, but in principle, at your expense."

    When our tribe is "Earth", then we will all feel that we stand or fall as one big tribe.
     
  16. river

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    As Pink Floyd said and warned us about : Welcome to the Machine .

    The Machine is about divide and concur . Ignorance . Not only by the masses , but to those who are more educated . Education does not lead to intellect . Education is about being " smart " , practical , not necessarily , intelligent , as in Newton .

    Religion is the true enemy . It will be the down fall of Humanity . Religion is part of the Machine .
     
  17. Xmo1 Registered Senior Member

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    This is an armed Earth. From a military viewpoint, the enemy are the ones shooting at you. Friends are the ones that stand beside you, and have your back as you have their's. It's really that simple. Cowards are looked upon with disdain, because they cannot be trusted, and may cause your injury or death with their cries and complaints.

    Wars are about land. When you talk about wealth (of resources) that is a lesser thing. Resources are in or of the land. Corruption is the 'illegal' usurpation of resources. Illegal here has the meaning not of legislated laws, but of the taking contrary to the common good.

    The two most pressing problems today are unchecked human population, and economic disparity. Unchecked population causes rampant disease, and economic disparity causes chaos, havoc, war, and death among the population. We would like people to care about people, and leaders to lead that effort, but the top of the rock, the aristocracy, and the leaders of armies, do not ask. They tell. They have accumulated the accouterments of force and the power to use it. That force may be armies, or money, or consensus among social groups, or all three.

    Gangs are the result of economic disparity. A good idea initially (We help the community.), but with age they become subject to ruthless leaders willing to do whatever it takes to remain in power. The same thing happens in the larger society.

    Societies not willing or able to acquire, engage, and defeat forces of corruption are going to be subjected by and to them. Sorry to say, but the world today is rife with economic disparity. Our economies are totally overcome by the 1 percenters. They hold the wealth, and they are not going to give it up. They own the global wealth, and have the power to control it. That extends to all privately owned land, commodities, and services.

    Further, they make every attempt to privatize public wealth at least cost for the benefit of their class's population. That includes what some people label as the commons, and public domain works, including those commissioned by and paid for by the public.

    As with gangs, the most ruthless and powerful among them rise to the top. Their businesses couldn't care less about people. The one directive is to make a profit. Then, law enforcement protects their banks and holdings, and the military protects their lands. From whom? From us, or anyone who would attempt to take it from them. The U.S. lives in a capitalist system, but wealth has no such limitations. It dominates capitalist systems.

    The biggest 'quality of life' problem the world has is the total failure of social systems to deal with those problems adequately, and properly. Social systems built by the aristocracy have been feeding their greed and power for decades.

    One thing - don't attempt revolution in the U.S. The military here is professional, and have all the tools and expertise to 'quell' proletariat uprisings. Personally, I'm a technocrat. I don't think anything short of a shift in government to a humanitarian technocracy (that believes in and practices taking care of people first) is going to benefit any of us. Voting for whomever certainly is not. Eventually, good people get outvoted, shamed, and replaced. So I think the enemy of good people is ignorance, and the inability to act effectively to deal with these two great problems. Socially, we have met the enemy, and it is us.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
  18. Musika Last in Space Valued Senior Member

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    Fear and ignorance are but part of the larger category of duality. Given that we live in a world of duality, the solution is a bit more involved than mere politics and leadership.
     
  19. Bowser Life is Fatal. Valued Senior Member

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    Define who the "good people" are, first.
     
  20. Bowser Life is Fatal. Valued Senior Member

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    The world wouldn't function without duality.
     
  21. birch Valued Senior Member

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    anything and anyone can be the enemy. everything is the enemy and it's everywhere. that's a good catch-all to start.
     
  22. Musika Last in Space Valued Senior Member

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    The world wouldn't function without variety. The extent to which the final last word in variety is duality, is debatable.
     
  23. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    i think you will find that those whom have most of the power do nothing to deserve it.
    they control it. deserving or not deserving has little-to absolutely nothing to do with who has what power.

    conceptualising moral authority to define deserving and not-deserving is asserting a moral concept on to another.
    those whom hold power assert their own moral authority on others by maintaining and exercising that power.
     

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