# What is space made of?

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience Archive' started by irishbones, Jun 30, 2004.

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Photons are NOT "particles", though perhaps near zero-mass dump-trucks that can haul mass about.

Superconducting Photons via Atomic Oort Zones

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How about the notion of "nearly resting photons", thus collectives of "dark-matter"

Since photons are NOT particles, though perhaps acting as near zero-mass dump-trucks that can haul mass about, as such, perhaps a cubic light year worth og somewhat resting photons might actually represent a fair amount of mass, especially since there's trillions upon trillions more of them, than atoms

I've added my "Supposition-101 (photons do not travel)" into the following link

Superconducting Photons via Atomic Oort Zones

BTW; a gravity wave is in fact another photon, though of a rather low frequency, and thus representing quite a long wavelength.

Last edited: Jul 24, 2004

5. ### Bigger ApeRegistered Senior Member

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Saying photons haul mass about is analogous to "steam hauls liquid water around". A photon has zero mass. When a photon is involved in a collision or comes to rest it becomes matter and has mass.

7. ### Bigger ApeRegistered Senior Member

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Equilibriums exist at all scales except conservation laws can be broken. Any high speed particle interacting with a local equilibrium only shifts it with its added energy

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Obviously you seem to be driving at gravity as being empty space, whereas a significant nullification zone offers the least gravity persay, and the most vacuum of nothing persay (possibly one atom/m3), but actually the nullification zone is simply the focus point or zone of nearly neutralized gravity with respect to something within that frame being least influenced in any one direction more than another, which in itself isn't nothing.

Obviously something very massive could be trapped within or trekking itself through a nullification zone of nearly nothing.

In fact a nullification zone worth of supposedly empty space isn't empty, as it's chuck full of energy that's merely arriving and/or coexisting with perhaps a great many photons that are nearly resting, as an equal gravity match against one another external sources of influence, which could actually represent a great deal of energy, and lots of expansion room for those resting/elongated photons.

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OK, I like where this is going.

If resting or perhaps those of nearly resting photons of whatever frequency (elongated or not) have mass, can you offer us an example of how much mass?

10. ### (Q)Encephaloid MartiniValued Senior Member

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If resting or perhaps those of nearly resting photons

A photon is never at rest and has no mass - it has momentum and energy.

11. ### rouge236Registered Member

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There is no such thing as a true vaccum. Even in the most matter devoid regions of the universe there is a huge amount of energy. If you want to know more about this do a google search for vacuum energy. There are many papers dealing with the existance and nature of vacuum energy.

12. ### Bigger ApeRegistered Senior Member

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I really do not say that there are resting or nearly resting photons. However on photons becoming mass, there are several examples that can be found in particle - antiparticle creation, in excitation/absorbtion, various colission types ...hf=MC^2
That's so, but let's not forget that some of the energy of photons can become mass as in the examples above.

13. ### wesmorrisNerd Overlord - we(s):1 of NValued Senior Member

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Hehe, it's made of the potential for matter to occupy it.

14. ### (Q)Encephaloid MartiniValued Senior Member

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When a photon is involved in a collision or comes to rest it becomes matter and has mass. ...let's not forget that some of the energy of photons can become mass...

No, when a photon is involved in a collision it transfers its energy to that object and dissapears. Photons are never at rest.

15. ### blobranaRegistered Senior Member

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Hum,
ok
hf=MC<sup>2</sup>

Well photons are the messenger particles of electromagnetism
When photons are considered point like it has an energy related (Planck's relation) to the frequency of the wave E = hν,
E is the photon energy
h = 6.626 × 10<sup>-34</sup>

And i think that ultimately energy is energy, (even if it's momentum)

(your just saying that the photon transfers the energy to another particle , and indirectly that energy may become mass)

< Just a thought... >
i imagine that given high enough energies particles cold be created from the electromagnetism field (4D curved Riemannian manifold ), particles like neutrons and protons...
(It is of course a probability field, that dictates how many virtual particles are created )
And they have mass ...and if they have mass they can interact with a gravitational field...
(or is it the higgs field interacts with a particle to give it mass? Er, and likewise i imaging that Particles could be created from gravitational energy)
Anyway...
So if electromagnetism and gravity could interact then that would affect the dynamics of say a black hole, or the sun, where the temperatures (energies) and magnetic fields are enormous...the sun is hot so the value of gravity is lowered...??

< /Just a thought... >

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Once again, around and around we go; If a photon can supposedly transfer energy into something other that becomes mass, how much mass per photon is possible to be obtained by this method?

Can that transference into something other be another photon?

17. ### HypercaneSustained Winds at Mach OneRegistered Senior Member

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I honestly thought a thread on what space is made of wouldnt make it this far.

18. ### TaoDervishRegistered Member

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As for the question of what space is "made of", I like the quantum foam answer. But it still really only describes things that are "in" space.

Should we think of space only as the volume that separates particles of matter or energy? Or does space still exist within the particle itself, i.e. the volume that is currently occupied by the particle?

I am also interested by this discussion of photons becoming or giving rise to mass. How does this happen?

My only guess is that if a photon collides with something and transfers momentum to it, that results in acceleration which would increase the mass of the thing with which it collided. Is that right?

19. ### Bigger ApeRegistered Senior Member

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The answer to the question both you guys raise is that photons and mass are just different manifestations of the same phenomenon (as hf=MC^2 shows) - oil and water don't mix

As for empty space or a vaccuum, you can only measure emptiness in relation to a given quantity of something, however this does not preclude the the existence (within the same volume), of other things outside of our reference system. You look for one thing and miss the rest. Indeed, the more thought that's given to the empty space concept - the more it is revealed to be an abstract impossibility.

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I have some limited feedback, and even less knowledge of my own to share, that I've posted the best that I can in spite of all the mainstream flak, as within the following link: Superconducting Photons via Atomic Oort Zones http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=37921

This topic of mine used to be in the Physics and Math department, although my absolute distain for folks that can't seem to give an inch, and would just as soon shred my message as though it were another ENRON/Andersen document, or perhaps something other that's bad about our resident warlord (although I think he's done for, so there's not much thrill in beating a dead horse).

I like the term "Quantum Foam", as that might coexist quite nicely with the notions of there being this ocean or soup of conductive photons that utilize the few and far between atomic Oort zones (spinning outer most shells) of atoms, as sort of FIFO packet nodes, thus photons can but do not have to actually travel.

Pour a cup of water into a stream, and as such an additional cup of water becomes available anywhere along that stream. Although, I'll guarantee that it's never going to be the same cup of water.

BTW; you do realize that a gravity wave is merely that of a very low frequency photon, that's traveling along at our rate of velocity, as within our moving frame of existance, thus nearly resting by way of most photon standards.

Another good question might become; how many photon/gravity waves coexist between us and that of the sun?

If there's only one such gravity wave, obviously is packs quite a punch.

21. ### (Q)Encephaloid MartiniValued Senior Member

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you do realize that a gravity wave is merely that of a very low frequency photon, that's traveling along at our rate of velocity, as within our moving frame of existance, thus nearly resting by way of most photon standards.

Why then does the force of gravity follow the inverse square law while photons do not? Why do photons give a 'push' when transfering their energy to an object while gravity gives a little 'pull?'

How can they be the same thing yet exhibit different properties?

Really Brad, do you ever think before you write something?

22. ### PeteIt's not rocket surgeryRegistered Senior Member

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Just quietly, Q... are you aware that the photon is the carrier particle for the electromagnetic force?

(ref: Hyperphysics)

23. ### (Q)Encephaloid MartiniValued Senior Member

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Yes, but notice that Brad did not.