What is Heat?

Discussion in 'Chemistry' started by Bishadi, Jul 26, 2008.

  1. Vkothii Banned Banned

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    3,674
    Hmm.
    I have absolutely no idea what Bishadi is talking about. I can see one or two familiar terms poking up out of the background there, but nothing else much...

    Anyone else think they can see something?
     
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  3. Bishadi Banned Banned

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    2,745
    possibly, because to learn means you have to jump into the heat of the pursuit; you have to want to evolve.

    as it seems even in your post, that unless someone else tells you the knowledge is correct, you choose not to do the homework....

    don't worry about it

    it's a common psychosis!
     
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  5. Vkothii Banned Banned

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    OK, I won't.
    Promise.
     
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  7. quantum_wave Contemplating the "as yet" unknown Valued Senior Member

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    In chemistry a cup of hot water is a cup of hot water. There is some physics related to a cup of hot water which is the effect of thermal radiation from a cup of hot water.

    Of course the cup of water could have been heated by a chemical reaction but that would be a reference to how the water got hot.

    Thermal radiation falls in the electromagnetic spectrum.

    Studying black body radiation is a good way to get the real skinny on the concept of thermal radiation and a good way to understand the heat of a cup of hot water.
     
  8. Gently Passing Registered Senior Member

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    232
    I suspect that the precise dynamics of heat are a function of Quantum Mechanics, dependent upon the interaction of subatomic particles.

    Clearly the billiard-ball model is insufficient, as is the EM model (infrared radiation).

    Simply, though: stored energy.
    As a material approaches its capacity to store energy as heat it becomes more unstable. Stability is achieved by transferring some of this energy to nearby objects, either through direct particulate (quantum) interaction or via radiation, ie infrared light waves.

    I would suspect they are both functions of the same principle. *shrug* as I am not a Physicist.
     
  9. Forceman May the force be with you Registered Senior Member

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    Heat is created by the rapid vibration of valence electrons in close contact with each other and can be described in terms of photons.
     
  10. Vkothii Banned Banned

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    Photons interact with protons too.
    Every nucleus has vibrational modes as well as the much lighter electrons, but the elastic coupling between them is constant - it's a matter of the mass difference.

    Another way to put that is: photons look "bigger" if you're an electron, or the message is more important, in terms of momentum.
    Electrons are the lightest particle possible that can process photons - because they have charge (algorithms), like protons do.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2008
  11. Bishadi Banned Banned

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    2,745
    maybe a little educations to assist in understanding 'photons'


    http://science.hq.nasa.gov/kids/imagers/ems/waves3.html

    so if a point of mass, is hot, then what size wavelength is being used upon, which is it the electron or proton?

    as it seems that the whole atoms and it's surrounding will be exposed to the resonance of that 'hot' item......
     
  12. Vkothii Banned Banned

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    3,674
    No, heat is the infrared part of the spectrum generally, and the infrared plus the total radiative output of a body specifically.

    But where do these photons come from? How do we know about them, and what the infrared ones do to "mass".
    Do you know?
     
  13. Bishadi Banned Banned

    Messages:
    2,745
    that is your answer

    i asked what is being affected the proton or the electron and you answered with


    and heat from gamma to the radio

    i asked a question about the wavelength and which part is be photoned with the energy (heat)


    no such thing

    just like there is no such thing as point particles, i be using your analogy

    i know quite well but you stated the electron gets his and the proton gets that..... but in most cases the energy wavelength (that one photon) is well above the size of a billion atoms let alone the proton and electron getting a photon

    i wanted to see you squeeze your butt out of that

    see monkeys thought the world was flat; then knowledge evolved

    ie...... once upon a time mass was a fixed point or spec of some dust thing, then strings become the norm

    problem is you not keeping an eye on the ball; energy is them perpendicular fields of electric and magnetic fields upon mass; the em spectrum

    so what is heat?
     
  14. Vkothii Banned Banned

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    3,674
    You really should stop pretending, you know.

    People who pretend to know things, usually make themselves look more and more pathetic, as they flail away trying to invent big words and string them together like a big sentence.
    You're as transparent as window glass - you have no observable long-range order.
    Not after you get past three words, usually.
     
  15. Bishadi Banned Banned

    Messages:
    2,745
    we already have you pegged

    a clown who jumps on which ever ship is in the water

    fact is, and please correct me if I am wrong, no point particles exist

    yes or no

    now back to heat

    what is heat?
     
  16. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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    10,890
    Generally speaking, the range of electromagnetic radiation that we perceive as 'heat' is in the infra red range.

    The infra-red, and Microwave ranges operate in frequencies where they excite vibrational modes of of molecular bonds, or rotational and vibrational modes of hole molecules.

    In essence (this is the simplified version) the photons interact with the dipole moments existing on the bonds (we can model a chemical bond as a ball and spring) to excite various symetric and asymetric modes of vibration.

    This is how a microwave oven works. The frequency of EM radiation produced by a Microwave oven is specifically tuned to have the greatest interaction with one of the bending modes of O-H bonds present in hydroxyl groups (incidentally, defrosting things in your microwave invariably ends up cooking the item in question around the edges and leaves it frozen in the middle because as the 'temperature' of water increases, the frequency at which it absorbs microwaves changes. Frozen water doesn't absorb very well at the frequencies microwaves operate at, however warmer water does).

    What we perceive as 'heat' when we touch a cup of hot water is the average kinetic energy of the molecules that make up the cup and its contents. It's nothing more special then that. 'Heat' is a statiscal property of bulk matter - at least when dealing with it at a 'common' level.

    I can go into further details if neccessary.
     
  17. Bishadi Banned Banned

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    2,745

    no trippy, you've done better than most.

    you offered a grand basis to realize that heat is simply the resonant energy upon the structure, and even as infrared was not used in the microwave, the reality that it is the specific wavelength for the water structures is a perfect example of how the rules break

    ie..... the warm water increases it's resonant capacity in greater potential-kinetic energy, than a bound ice crystal of water in which, the edges are where the changes (release) occurs first..

    thanks
     
  18. John99 Banned Banned

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    22,046
    Dont know if this helps but heat is a byproduct of energy and energy is a byproduct of heat, I am not sure if you can have one without the other. Throw in agitation and it amplifies the energy produced.

    If you take a cup with a tightly sealed lid and fill it with hot water the pressure builds and if you shake it then release the lid you got yourself a little boiler.

    Interesting question.

    Another aspect related to this is superheated steam.

    http://www.spiraxsarco.com/resource...iples-and-heat-transfer/superheated-steam.asp

    http://www.straightdope.com/columns/060804.html
     
  19. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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    10,890

    That isn't what I said, and there are no rules broken. Heat is not about resonant energy. Heat is kinetic energy. Resonance only comes into it (for example) when you're trying to use a microwave oven, but it's no different from what gives dyes their colour, that also is an example of resonance, it's exactly the same phenomena, just at different wavelengths.

    Your microwave oven works for the same reason that your pen ink is blue, carrots are orange, plants are green, photosynthesis occurs, and we can see.
     
  20. Vkothii Banned Banned

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    3,674
    That last assumption may not be an applicable one, in certain special cases, Trippy.

    Perhaps our resident resonance expert can intuit what the 'r' word means (hint: it can be explained with complex frequencies and characteristic polynomials - of passive elements like vibrating molecules - that have complex roots).
    So how are your tex skills there, Bishadi? Can you put an explanation together, not too heavy on the math, that resonates at all?
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2008
  21. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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    That we can see?
     
  22. Vkothii Banned Banned

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    3,674
    Check - in special cases where one's vision is filtered through various self-sustaining persistent patterns.
    Resulting in wilful blindness to logic and deduction, never mind induction.
     
  23. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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    10,890
    Touche. Although I suspect your point is too subtle for many.
     

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