What is free will?

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by fess, Jan 30, 2019.

  1. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,467
    Good pont.!!!
    So do you thank that humans have a lot… or very little free will.???

    An my bacteria is part of wthat makes me who i am… so its me causin my brain to do what it does… which makes my will free… no.???

    Right… an i dont have beleifs in supernatural anyway.!!!
    I am a unique individual which makes unique free choices based on how I percieve the input to my 5 sinces… except when bazzar stuff hapens like shot in a drive-by or hit by a train… etc.!!!
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,909
    I don't think free will is a useful concept. We have anywhere from a lot of choices down to zero, depending on the situation, and we usually don't know what all of them are.
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. C C Consular Corps - "the backbone of diplomacy" Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,980
    Yes, indeed ("except"). Having a "will" (autonomous system operation) that is free from external coercion doesn't mean that the latter is universal slash absolute (applicable throughout all time, locations, and circumstances). As a newly bound slave for instance, there might be few occasions where one could ever again choose and act in the context of "who I conceive myself as and what I'm interested in" -- as one did in the past. Slavery is an extreme case, but there's a multitude of far more mitigated examples in everyday life where other organisms, human institutions, and non-living environmental situations can force or seduce one to temporarily deviate from personal template or form.

    Even then, however, the body is a self-animated, information apprehending, self-deciding system which selects from a very limited set of options. Citizen-X decides to comply with the milder complication which a government agency offers rather than go to prison; because it has the capacity to evaluate the binary possibilities box it is trapped in -- to weigh the consequences of both. Whereas a rock or chicken in the same fix wouldn't even understand the limited options offered, and despite not making a choice at all would still by default go to prison (in that particularly crazy world where such happens). A ventriloquist dummy could output a selection, but its superficial appearance of will would be ersatz -- it would entirely stem from an outside agency that is manipulating it (heteronomous rather than autonomous operation).

    ###
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,365
    Oh yes, it is you who is acting. But are you acting from free will?

    You do not keep yourself alive. It's totally beyond your control. All you can do is eat healthy foods.
    Your bodily functions are beyond your "intentional control". Introspection is subconscious control over physical functions, you do not get to make any choices at all, the bacteria do.
    Quorum Sensing.
     
  8. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,467
    When i choose Fruit Loops... the color red... to walk... to drive... etc... ther all free choices i make... an it seems like any choice i make is free... so it seems to me that all my choices are free... no.???
     
  9. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,467
    I see my bodily functions as just that... my bodily functions (which includes my bacteria)... which affect my brain... which controls my choices... so my system is in control... an my system is me... ie... im in control of me... makin my choices free... no.???
     
  10. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,467
    Sure... a brain not capable of comprehendin the notion of choice is not free to make a free choice... but hardly anybody alive is incapable of makin choices... an the choices they make are free... no.???
     
  11. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,365
    No. The choices are being made for you by all your little parts (cells) over which you have no control. You have to look at the human body as a universe as compared to the size of individual bacteria. These organisms live at nano-scales, totally outside the reach of our consciously motivated neural network. They make up the network.

    This animation is not fantasy. this is what it looks like and this is how it functions, by the millions inside us every second of our life, completely apart from our consciousness. Try to visualize this inside you.....it's absolutely mind-blowing......a trip into the inner biological universe. It appears to be very much alive all on its own as long as we feed it energy.


    "Quorum sensing" is the term used for bacterial group decision making within the human host, without knowledge or permission from the host. Humans are a compound organism.

    Consider the health of the Earth, does the earth have any choice in humans causing GW? We're all part and parcel of the earth, but the earth does not control our behavior. It may even see humans as a "surface nuisance".

    Sometimes humans see bacteria as an internal or surface nuisance.

    This is what the science tries to accomplish, to communicate with our companion internal and external bacterial populations so that we can learn their language and by changing their chemical words we CAN control their behavior.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019
  12. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,365
    You believe these are FW choices but in reality you always choose that which is your preference at that very instant, but your preference is based on a deterministic chemical imperative that urges you to move "in the direction of greatest satisfaction" and you will always choose that which your mind tells you to choose.

    Would you call an addiction as a free will choice? If we had free will why do some take drugs that they know will kill them? That is even contrary to our survival mechanism and proves that fundamental biological chemistry does not function on our desires or reason but rather it controls our desires and reason.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019
  13. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 69 years old Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,365
    Idiots have free will

    When you see someone smoking through a permanent tracheostomy (surgical opening in throat) haveing had mouth cancer removed because of smoking you have seen stupidity at its loudest

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
    cluelusshusbund likes this.
  14. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,909
    How do you "choose" Froot Loops when you don't have any?

    How do you "choose" to walk or drive across the continent? Or to Paris? Or to Mars?

    There are strict limits to what you can choose. If you have no Froot Loops, the number of choices is zero. So I don't see how "free will" has any value as a concept.
     
  15. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,365
    I guess the idea is when you have a choice from among several choices. But even here you will always choose that which appeals to you the most, not because someone is preventing you from making a choice.
    No one decides to choose or act against their own interests, unless there is a greater compelling consideration. Practically, the choice has already been made before you're even presented with options.
     
  16. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,467
    To you it seems... that choice/free-will is like a magic lamp... an when you rub it what ever you choose shoud sudenly apear.???

    To me... free choice is the ability to pick what i want from whats avalable.!!!
     
  17. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,909
    That seems like an extremely limited choice. Instead of "free will" why don't you just call it "extremely limited choice"?
     
  18. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,467
    All sorts of thangs occur externaly but are irrelevant once ther effects enter my system whare my free will begins... ie... my unique system freely chooses how it will react to the combination of its external an internal input.!!!
     
  19. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,467
    My choices are not extremely limited... just the opposite.!!!
    Whether good or bad choices... its me that freely makes 'em.!!!
     
  20. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,909
    As I have pointed out, your choices are extremely limited. You can not choose to eat what you do not have. You can not choose to eat what you are allergic to. Even if you had a bad reaction to, say peanuts, many years ago, your subconcious won't let you choose them.
     
  21. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,467
    Of course i coud choose to eat peanuts even if it woud kill me... as of now i woud choose not to eat those peanuts... but the choice is that never the less... prolly hardly a day goes by that people dont choose to do very harmful thangs to therself.!!!
     
  22. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,909
    That's not a free choice. It's an insane choice. It's the same argument that Christians use to claim that we "choose" Hell.
     
  23. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,467
    I dont thank a "bad" choice necessarly makes somone insane.!!!
     

Share This Page