From another thread posted by Quantam Quack, "If one could simply put down all prior conceptions of what God is and contemplate on what God could be one can see that God indeed does exist if only we allow that definition to exist." Not that (for the purpose of this thread) "God indeed does exist if we allow that definition", but I thought it enjoyable to see what we deduce God could, or should be, or if it is even possible to put down a sufficient amount of pre-conceptions for us to create attributes we would like of God. How difficult would it be for us to create God without cultural inclusions and, or religious histories or creeds. Where shall we start, while we "put down all prior conceptions"? I thought this was worthy of some exploration. You first!
The only sure way to deal with God, is to assert fundementally that he is a necessary being/thing with perfect qualities and attributes that are logically consistant. I shall later purpose what I assert God is either in this thread or in another.
I can deal with "logically consistant", why perfect though? That appears to be a pre-disposition, and/or culturally concieved notion.
In order for him to be a necessary being, with "omni" attributes, those things must be perfect. It ceases to be omnipotence, for instance, if it is not perfect power.
"In order for him to be a necessary being, with "omni" attributes, those things must be perfect. It ceases to be omnipotence, for instance, if it is not perfect power." I thought we were forgetting all prior conceptions of 'God' though. When I look at the world around me, its hard to imagine that a god of any kind could really exist, but what about this: What if God was some unexplained force or presence that attempted to keep balance on Earth? When humans "got smart" so to say and started building entire cities, using earth's limited resources, polluting the air, breeding like roaches, and upsetting the balance of ecosysems, this God attempts to retore Earth to its original state by means of natural disasters, disease, the possibility of meteors hitting the earth. Haha, just thought that up in about half a minute, but I guess it's as good as any other conception of God I've ever heard of.
Ibanez: I really ought to have started from a foundation in explaining why God ought to be perfect, in order to be God, but this is really just an extension of my logical theology. It's semi-valid, I suppose. No real proof for the theory, though.
By Ibanez… "I thought we were forgetting all prior conceptions of 'God' though." That was the original exercise yes, and you gave us some material to explore. I didn’t even know if it was possible to begin anywhere but I think you may have just done that. Your premise began, as "When I look at the world around me". I think that to deny culture or preconceived notions, the only thing we have left is our environment, our known experiences (save cultural, historical references) and us; whatever that may be worth. Your God sounds much like the idea, held by some worldviews, that the earth and all of the contents, including life etc. is a symbiotic entity, its own living and breathing organism. Your God, in contrast, is external to this world or such an entity. So your God is not necessarily part of the organism, as in ‘God is the conglomerate of all that exists’, he appears to be separate from, but has an interest in our environment. Your God has the necessary power to change and influence the operations of the world as we know it, but you have not necessarily given him an all-powerful characteristic. He has the power to change the world, but what of the rest of the universe? Does he need to have some influence (and or power) over our solar system, for instance, so that earth can sustain life etc.? Does he need limitless power in order to keep the balance? What tools does he need at his disposal, to accomplish his balancing act that you have charged him with? Does he need to be all knowing for instance? Was he left in charge, or was he self-appointed? Did he claim this power from a greater power, or is there no greater power? What would be the purpose of a balanced earth? What would be the reason he was concerned? What goals would be met by keeping the earth in check? Is it his? Does it exist for him, or does he exist for it? Notice... you didn't start with your 'self' or your 'I', you began with the external to imagine your God, though it could be argued that without the ‘I’ the world around you could not be experienced or observed. It may require a balance of both the ‘I’ and the external to conceive the notion of God.
Those can be difficult questions to answer. That's what I was getting at when I said "When I look at the world around me, its hard to imagine that a god of any kind could really exist." With most, probably all conecptions of God he/she just is, and they do what they do because they do. I've never seen the intentions of any God ever explained. So it becomes difficult to answer questions such as "What would be the purpose of a balanced earth?" and "What would be the reason he was concerned?" because there's no significant reason as far was we can comprehend. But ok, I'll give it a whack. Perhaps this God does have power throughout the entire universe, however this is less evident because not only do we know little on the grand scale of the universe, but there isn't much out there to distroy the balance of everything. Matter and energy are still recycled throughout the universe as here on earth. Dying stars implode and send enormous ammounts of gas out into space, which later collects together again and forms more stars, but there is very little to interfere with this and therefore little for this God to worry about. I can't come up with anything to explain his powers or how he got in power. Perhaps he was just an entity created along with the rest of the universe during the big bang. Perhaps God has a deep love of the Universe, or at least feels some sort of need to retain its beauty and that's why he manipulates the operations of the universe to attempt to restore order on earth. Hope that sounds fairly reasonable.
Correct. While I personally assert that it is reasonable, I wish to explore the possibility of creating God from scratch. In some way, it is a reflection of some anthropological, cultural study in what we can create on our own, and without influence. It's just fun, I think, to try and be that disengaged from our, presuppositions on matters of God. It’s also a linguistics exercise, since the word’ God’ is a very loaded single word, as are the 'Omni' attributes. Anyhow, it’s fun to try.
Hah, I somehow failed to see the "un" infront of resonable, I misunderstood what you said. It'd be interesting to see what others would come up with...
I, and others, came to the realization we will die someday, which became an unbearable emotional drain. This caused us to question ourselves and eventually our environment. We had no knowledge of science, yet we needed answers, and soon. We invented answers based on pure guesswork and a consensus was reached. Religion was born.
If there is a God, I doubt he is the one as perscribed by our religions. For him to be omni and outside of time, he would see the world as a static picture with time along one axis. As the world was created he would already know all the consequences - I am not responcible for my actions - he is. Any uncertainty requires him to be imperfect. I would suspect that if there is somekind of super entity, that he is just flesh and blood. An alien! Probably dead by now, so it's ok to 'take his name in vain'/rape/pillage. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Truthseeker: What is perfect? The ultimate expression logically of the attribute. Examples: Omnipotence - All power within logical bounds. Omniscience - All knowledge. Omnipresence - Encompasing and being all of existence and reality. If God does not have these, and a few other, attributes, then he is not a logical necessity, and in which case unless God reveals himself to us, we cannot know him ever, and ontop of that, he'd be contingent.
What is really perfection? Is it an absolute concept or is it dependent on your perception? Can there be any "perfection"?
Is your favorite singer Jimmy Buffet? See if you can guess what I mean by that. So, the emotional fear of death created the need for a higher being, and without any knowledge of science the consensus created God. Does science now fill the emotional void (the fear of death) that caused this myth to emerge from the imaginations of the masses? Science now answers for man that; what? Death is harmless and wonderful? Science makes no claim to fill emotional needs, does it? I hope not; I would doubt any such science. The ‘primatives’ who sought answers to the question of ‘what happens at death?’ are (were) far more advanced than one who scoffs at such questions, but offers no answer.
