What drives people to watch child porn?

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Challenger78, Dec 5, 2008.

  1. RubiksMaster Real eyes realize real lies Registered Senior Member

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    I'm claiming that it doesn't "involve" anyone. A pedophile is just an ordinary person until he actually involves a real child. Having a thought or an internal desire is not immoral, and it involves nobody except the person doing the thinking. A desire cannot be illegal, even if everyone thinks it's "wrong". Nobody has the right to punish a thought crime, not even the government.

    I only care once a person is violated by it. I think there is nothing wrong with thoughts per se. If a person wants to seek help themselves, that's great, but I don't believe anyone has the right to force anyone else into treatment just because they have certain desires.

    By the way, it's DSM, not DMS. I noticed you spelled it that way in all your posts.
     
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  3. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    my apologies, i have so many acronims running around in my head that sometimes i rember them backwards. Your right that its the DSM IV rather than the DMS IV

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  5. yourequal Registered Member

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    Nope. But I'd like everyone's freedom, not just my own.

    Who says it's a CRIME? There's a difference between something being unhealthy, and bad for both the individual and society, and something being a crime. If we are supposed to have a society, we have to work it out between us what is bad and unhealthy, and se what's causing this type of behaviour and offer prevention and treatment for it.

    Because, to have trusted interhuman relationships, we need to share our thoughts, and maybe come to an agreeable, common understanding (no we don't want to be 100% aligned, but maybe 10%).
    That's what it's all about. Not condemning thoughts but reaching a common understanding of what we can expect from eachother and what in turn is expected from us to have a working society.
    Nothing to do with one being more righteous than the other. Just to do with finding common ground.
    It has to do with reaching an agreement, and feeling that we KNOW and UNDERSTAND eachother.
    If you read what write and don't argue with me before you've verified that what you're assuming I meant is what I actually meant, I will do the same.

    You feel pretty righteous though, don't you? You're on here as the voice of liberty, yet if someone had their liberty taken away from them in front of your eyes, you wouldn't do a thing to stop it. Think about that.
    How is that the voice of liberty? More than the voice of a self-centered, indifferent person who's just out to excuse him/herself from any kind of social responsibility whatsoever. Is that the case? You take your freedom for granted then.
    Freedom is not to be free to subject someone to your will, freedom is to be free from the subjection of someone else's will.

    Sorry to say you've got me all wrong. Did you read that I wrote treatment?

    Exactly. I'm equal to them, but they are troubled in a way that I'm not, and hope not to be. Troubled in my mind because they can't interact with and appreciate people without sexualizing them.
     
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  7. yourequal Registered Member

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    Not force no, but they are all the more responsible when there is treatment available.

    You discern between thought and action. I do too, but not so much. I think thoughts are, at least if they're recurring and suggestive, i.e. "Oh yeah... she looks just like that girl from ass intruders 14. If society hadn't constrained our lusts/desires, and we were free to do anything, she'd want it... Umm yeah... she wants it now, just doesn't know it".
    Indicating a progressive misconception in that person. And this of course is a very mild example.
    But if this person uses any of these ideas, coupled with habitual self-arousal, as a means of escape from 'normal' life... when they reach their boiling point, fact and fiction will meet. Some of them WILL act it out. Then it really does matter what those thoughts were/are about.

    Thanks for your reply btw.
     
  8. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    But you don't want people's freedom to have fantasies about children! What about their freedoms? You want to take away a person's freedom to think, to dream, to have "weird" fantasies!

    So you want the people who have these child-sexual fantasies to come to you and admit it, so that you can treat it? Isn't that like asking murderers to come forward, admit their crimes and ask for treatment?

    Wow! You're livin' in a fantasy world yourself, ain't ya'? Do you have even the faintest idea of what the reality is with humans and society? And you expect humans to "share our thoughts"? ....LOL!!

    Fuck 'em ...if they can't protect themselves or pay someone for protection, they don't deserve liberty. Millions of Americans died for the liberty of others, if we're not strong enough to keep it, we don't deserve it. And a large part of that liberty is the right to think whatever we want ...including sexual fantasies with little kids!!

    Now you're talking about actions, not thoughts! Make up yer' fuckin' mind!

    Thinking about those cute little girls is far, far different to acting on those thoughts. You want to keep people from thinking those thoughts, or any other thoughts that you don't like.

    Ye're the one who don't want "those kind of people" around, so I thought I'd just save you the cost and effort of treating them .....we'll just shoot 'em and save all the money and effort. Your problem is solved ...quickly, simply and 100% effective.

    Read that statement again ...you're saying "equal", then turning right around and showing how they're "troubled" ...and you are not!! Equal? Ye're a laugh a minute, ain't ya'?

    Appreciate people? Do you appreciate murderers, child molesters, rapists, pornographers, whores, prostitutes, ...., and the entire host of humans who prey on other humans in any form?

    Ahh, no, you're one of those that sees the world through rose-colored glasses, ain't ya'? Isn't the world a wonderful place ...with all the poverty and sickness and starvation? Ooops, wait, .....you don't see that, do you?

    Baron Max
     
  9. yourequal Registered Member

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    Personally, I want people to focus on healthier ideas/fantasies and to live, appreciate and be appreciated in the real world, so there is no earth-shattering discrepancies between their ideas/fantasies and what's possible in the real world without someone being violated.

    Sure. Not as simple as that, but whatever. To be effective, it has to be prevented and treated on every level, and everyone involved has to understand and agree with it.

    I'm living in a world of possibilities. And I'm empowered by that, not defeated by it. Your freedom makes you accountable. Your responses, or your ability to respond 'properly' (you ultimately decide what is proper and not), is your responsibility to maintain.

    Do you know a lot of pedophiles? Do you think most of them want these thoughts? Or do you just want to protect your own freedom at the cost of another?

    To me they are closely related. I don't need to make up my mind, that's how I see it.

    And you're saying that I need to come to terms with reality? You don't know what's far, far different for anyone else. I'm convinced that if people who suffer from these thoughts were treated to understand how self-defeatist and unproductive they are, since they can't be acted out, they would be in a better place, yeah.

    I want them around and I want them to have treatment if they want it, and to be presented (if they haven't) with the opportunity of a more fulfilling life where they can form real, healthy relationships, and I want a society that doesn't contradict itself. Stop putting words in my mouth.

    I'm still equal to them, even if I think what they think/do is counterproductive/unhealthy/bad/wrong/whatever, both to themselves and those around them.
    To me, they're troubled. To them, maybe I'm troubled. Does that make us unequal? I thought it just meant we disagree.
    There's no guarantee I won't end up like them if I don't recognise the gravity of it and find a means to prevent it.

    I appreciate them and I appreciate freedom. I don't appreciate however that they prey on other humans and violate or manipulate them for any reason, no.

    Nope. I'm a realist who knows that unlike many, I have a large degree of freedom of choce, and with it I can change my own situation at any time.
    The world isn't a wonderful place for everyone, no.
    I see poverty, sickness and starvation. That's exactly why I wouldn't want to derive my life's meaning from memorizing and desperately acting out all the porn moves with my girlfriend before she had to go to back to school for a week, and munching on snacks and beer and entertaining myself while she was away. Wouldn't work for me.
     
  10. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    What if that's not what they want? You'll force them? You want to control what people dream about?

    Remember, dreaming or fantazising is NOT violating someone else's rights or freedoms. Yet you want to control it?

    What's the treatment? How effective is it? What's the rate of successful treatment for dreaming about little girls?

    I don't know, do you? I don't think many people know a lot about what people dream.

    Yes, I want my freedoms ...even if it means the death of millions! On second thought, make that billions!

    What's the treatment? How effective is it? What's the rate of successful treatment for dreaming about little girls?

    But dreaming and fantasies aren't "preying on" anyone! It's just thoughts ...yet you want to control those thoughts. What other thoughts don't you like? What other thoughts are you going to want to control?

    Even murderers are considered innocent until convicted in a court of law. Yet you want to convict people, and force them to undergo treatment, even without legal representation in a court of law!

    And you say you like freedom? ...LOL!

    I have to say that, while people who dream of sex with little girls are sick-os, I'm beginning to think that you're far worse than that!

    Baron Max
     
  11. Search & Destroy Take one bite at a time Moderator

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    Generally - The majority of us find child porn and thievery wrong. For reasons like abuse and social instability. If you find them right, it is for selfish reasons.

    If you are the minority that thinks child porn and thievery are right, it is unfortunate you are born into world where people cannot be completely individualistic. So we don't kill these sorts, we put them where they better fit, alone in a cell. I wish we could send them to pedo-planet but that is impossible right now.

    What says you?
     
  12. yourequal Registered Member

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    No I don't. I want them to be made aware of the futility and destructiveness of having such thoughts and to gain power over them. I.e. self-control.

    There's a lot we don't know, but that doesn't mean we can't find out.
    If someone can get into a state where they obsessively fantasize about something, they can get out of it again.
    This is about people choosing to be conscious of how their thoughts/actions affect everything.

    I'm sure you could rate it, but not so sure as to the accuracy of it... At best, manifestation of such thoughts would steadily drop. There would be a decrease in relational fear and paranoia and subsequent increase in sense of security and connection within the population.
    Check with google about effectiveness of current treatments, because I don't know. I'm sure you'll find a lot that's sympathetic to both our views and many more.

    You're all alone already if you think like that.

    To you, they are just thoughts. To me, thoughts, or how we choose to deal with them, make up much of the individual.
    Thoughts I personally don't like? unfound, irrational negative thoughts about something that cloud our communication or understanding of it.
    And that could be anything... in short, prejudice.
    I don't want control over anyone... but I do want to reach a sustainable, regulated society where we are enabled to take responsibility our thoughts/actions, and those who have fallen into thoughts/actions they can't bear the responsibility of, can get help.

    Convict them? How do you mean? Because society would depict it as something bad and try to defer people from it?
    No one is out to read your mind, or in a position to condemn you if they did.
    People are left to choose if they want treatment, or if they want to continue on their way. But if they've been made aware of what it does to them and the rest, and dismiss it all the same, they're all the more responsible.
    I think we need to take sex, the power it has, more seriously.

    I do. But the freedom I like isn't to be free from responsibility at the expense of someone/something else.
    The freedom I like is to be able to continually choose for myself, and bear the consequences of that choice.

    I'm beginning to think you're not the least bit interested in what I have to say.
     
  13. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    So you're advocating something about which you know little or nothing??? Do you always fantasize about everything? Dream of silly Snow White-type dreams of wonder worlds and such?

    But that's exactly what you've been advocating all along on this thread!

    I'd bet that people who dream of sex with little girls would feel exactly that same way. But you don't want that, you want to see into their minds, then take away their freedom to dream.

    I've been reading your bullshit ideals for several days now ...and that's all it is, bullshit dreams of "your" perfect world.

    You've not learned yet one major lesson in life:

    Dream in one hand, shit in the other, then see which one fills up first!

    Baron Max
     
  14. CutsieMarie89 Zen Registered Senior Member

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    People should only be treated for thoughts if they actually suffer from them and want treatment. A lot of people (if not practically all) have strange sexual or non sexual fantasies that could never be acted out in real life, but isn't that what makes your imagination great? I like not having the thought police roam around through my mind.
     
  15. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    I think its less about moral or immoral and more about changes in attitudes. e.g. It was perfectly normal in Egypt, Europe, Asia, Africa and the Middle East for prepubescent children to marry, or to marry grown men/women. Greek men and Afghan men kept young boys as lovers. The idea of children being non-sexual beings who are protected from sex is a fairly recent one. So I would say, child porn is not new, the attachment of consent and morality to it is. So there being a segment of population that is exclusively pedophilic is not a deviation from the norm, its a readjustment of the norm itself.

    Thats the objective analysis, I can still find it utterly deplorable, but thats because I am a product of a society that has only recently embraced this morality.
     
  16. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    What?! Got something to hide in that brain of yours, Marie? Ooh, tell us what it is!!

    But, hell, the "thought police" could roam around in my mind all they want ...they'll never, ever find anything in there!

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    I only begin to think of young girls 3 seconds past their legal age. 3 seconds before that, nope, just don't look at 'em or think about 'em.

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    Baron Max
     
  17. yourequal Registered Member

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    If I know in-depth about current treatments or not has nothing to do with it. Do you think people need to be experts to contribute to a discussion? Are you an expert? What's your problem? It's freedom you know... allows me to do stuff like this and get away with it too....

    Treatment for people who have unwanted, self-corrupting thoughts isn't exactly a pipe dream. It's already there. Check with google and don't hassle me about it.

    You're repeating. I already adressed that.

    You're not reading it seems. Then you'd get that I'm not after my own perfect world. And no amount of quoting out of context, projection or repeating on your part will change that.

    Depends who you are and what you dream, doesn't it...
    Even if you can't make your dreams come true, other people can and have.
    Doesn't matter which fills first. If your dream can materialise, saying it's moot because of how much harder it is or how much more effort needs to be put into it, is a shit excuse.
     
  18. yourequal Registered Member

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    That's what I'm saying. And if you act them out, you're all the more responsible for it when we're made aware of known causes and treatment is readily available. But I can feel my synapses turn...must stop fantasizing and shit in my hand instead.
     
  19. yourequal Registered Member

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    I don't want to get into how objective of an analysis that is... but that doesn't mean it's correct or that it encompasses everything. A lot can be derived from history. Doesn't mean it's applicable or comparable to the current.

    Prepubescent sex and prepubescent marriage are two different things, and it's most likely a mistake to liken the attitude towards prepubescent sex in those times, to current attitudes towards it. No past civilization has had anywhere near the access to graphic, lifelike porn or (contradictory) information and conversation surrounding it that we have now.
     
  20. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    Sure, but then you're raggin' on me for exercising that same freedom in discussing the issue with you. See? Once again you've shown that your name, "yourequal" is just your self-centered, egotistical, elitist attitude.

    Or, ...wait, are you expecting everyone to oooh and ahhh over your idiotic suggestions .....without even a hint at discussing it or questioning it? Ahh, so you're also fuckin' tyrannical, too?

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    Baron Max
     
  21. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    So now you're saying that all of those nasty, child-sex thoughts are caused by porno and Internet images? Until porno was invented, people never ever had thoughts of sex with children?

    Baron Max
     
  22. CutsieMarie89 Zen Registered Senior Member

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    I don't understand what you mean. Even if there were some sort of magical treatment that was a cure all for certain "unhealthy" thoughts, I assume that many people wouldn't want to be treated. Just like a lot of deaf people don't want to have their hearing fixed even though it's an option nowadays for many.
     
  23. yourequal Registered Member

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    Acts are most often preceded by thought... and it doesn't have to immediately preceed an action for there to be a correlation. One feeds and inspire the other in both directions.

    The more clear and cohesive society is on the issue, on not only raising public awareness for it, but effectively preventing known causes and treating it for free, if a number of those who have 'unhealthy' thoughts dismiss all that, and a few of them again subsequently act it out, they are all the more responsible than if there hadn't been public awareness, societal prevention and treatment for it. Nothing new about that idea, but maybe it's self-explanatory or I'm not that good at explaining it..
    Just as someone deaf who can get their hearing fixed is all the more responsible for their position if they don't. But I think not having your own hearing is different from physically violating another person.

    Sure many wouldn't want to be treated. Many wouldn't take it seriously, many would be too ashamed to aknowledge their thoughts, many would be too prideful to receive help for it, etc.
     

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