What does it mean for somthing to become ionized?

Discussion in 'Chemistry' started by skaught, Dec 1, 2008.

  1. Bishadi Banned Banned

    Messages:
    2,745
    and that energy is what in every case?

    forceman, you are complacent not scientific

    in both fission and fusion.... you simply reflect what others believe but fail to combine the knowledge of many to comprehend that half of what is observed contradicts what is defined.

    ie.... split an atom and energy is released...not an electrical 'potential difference' .............. so what is energy?

    nicest thing you could have said to me.
     
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  3. Bishadi Banned Banned

    Messages:
    2,745
    and hot coffee is different than cold

    to smell 'heat'

    touch hot

    see colors

    or even hear a wisper
     
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  5. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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    10,890
     
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  7. Bishadi Banned Banned

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    2,745
    do you have forceman on ignor?
     
  8. Bishadi Banned Banned

    Messages:
    2,745
    thst is your defense debating batteries when reality already shares the system is a unit and the sides of potential are a part of the single system

    it was forcemans commnet on Einstein that i pointed out the simple reality of what energy is at its core

    and to better understand ionizations perhaps try london force

    in each case the polarity (ionizations) is created by another portion of the system in which the 2 parts makes the whole

    kind of basic :shrug:
     
  9. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Messages:
    10,890
    Right... So when you claim that i'm wrong about how batteries work, discussing how baateries works becomes irrelevant?

    I've backe up my claims, where's your proof?

    VDW force is created by transient electric dipoles.
    Ionic bonds are electric charge created by the removal of electrons (oxidation) or addition of electrons (reduction).

    So far all i've seen you offer is rhetoric with no actual proof.
     
  10. Bishadi Banned Banned

    Messages:
    2,745
    now you are fishing.

    I used the idea of batteries to share ionization. It is what the thread is about.

    In ancient time they use batteries for plating. You are sharing nothing new about how elements of mass become ionized.

    now we on target again..... so where does the 'extra' electrons come from if not still associated to the system (battery- oxidation/reduction). {sorry to see you did not put that together over this last week?}

    you are fishing to put me in my place and i have been sharing comprehension that offers reality to phenomena

    you just shared what a battery was and described VDW's in the same frame and didn't even know it.

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  11. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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    10,890
    Feel free to keep your accusations to yourself.

    And you got the basics of how batteries function wrong. I pointed out your error, you challenged it, and I once again demonstrated how you were wrong - I see a pattern forming here.

    I suggest you buy a dictionary, and then look up what Ion means. My post perfectly explained what Ionization is, and how, and why it occurs.

    This question is nonsensical. There are no 'Extra electrons'. One side of the reaction involves an Oxidation reaction which results in the loss of electrons from an atom. Those electrons move through an external circuit, doing work, and then are taken up by the other side of the reaction, where a Reduction takes place. There are no magical 'extra electrons' as you seem to wish to imply - see the specific example I gave using lead-acid batteries.

    No, and No,

    And again I say No. You clearly don't understand Electrochemistry.
     
  12. Forceman May the force be with you Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    206
    (Late reply, I know) My reference to Einstein was out of replying to what you posted about his theory.

    P.s. I think you're confused about the concept, Bishadi. In other words, you have no idea what you're talking about!
     
  13. Bishadi Banned Banned

    Messages:
    2,745
    such that the Big E also had no idea what an electron was.

    People fail to remember, Einstein was not a bohr atom kind of guy
    perhaps that is what you meant?




    as for the trippy appeal; not comprehending that to ionize one side means another side is proportionally affected, just like the system of a battery, is becoming redundant


    as for electrochemistry; i have only one question, what is the symbol for the resonant occillations of molecules as defined in the chemical descriptions of mass?

    share that in 'electrochemistry' oh trippy one........
     
  14. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Messages:
    10,890
    This is pure un-mitigated nonsense.
    You don't know what you're talking about.


    Sure, just as soon as you explain how the flavour of pink affects the smell of yellow.

    Thinly veiled abuse will get you no-where.
     
  15. Bishadi Banned Banned

    Messages:
    2,745
    apparently you don't do experiment nor comprehend how 'any' ionization takes energy and system to create the potential difference


    so from ionizations to 'how the senses works?'

    r u bipolar?


    does hot coffee taste different than cold coffee?

    or to be a wee bit clearer; is every atom to atom combination creating a molecule, combined and held together by energy?

    what is that energy?
     
  16. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Messages:
    10,890
    Wrong. I have already explained how Ionization takes place - An electron is removed from, or added to an atom.

    Removal can be done by a number of ways, a collision of sufficient forc with another atom or molecule, or application of an electric charge.

    Addition can be done by a number of ways, a collision of sufficient force, or application of an electric charge.

    I've given specific examples to back my case, and provided references in electrochemistry to back my case. And what precisely have you done? Sit around and complain that i'm wrong.

    You're being rude again, are you going to keep trying to insult me?

    And no, i'm simply trying to illustrate how nonsensical some of teh questions you've been asking are.

    The kinetic energy of the molecules in the cup of cold coffede is, on average, lower than the kinetic energy of the molecules in the hot cup, so when the molecules in the cold cup interact with the receptors on your tongue, therefore the stimulation is less extreme, so your brain has the opportunity to register different flavours that were always here.

    No, not every atom-atom interaction creates a molecule. There is no 'molecule' of NaCl, just a conglomeration of Na+ and Cl- ions held together by mutual electrostatic attraction.

    Generally speaking, it's electrostatic, the only place that the magnetic forces particularly come into play is in the spin pairing of electrons.
     
  17. Bishadi Banned Banned

    Messages:
    2,745
    where did it come from?

    that means for one side to be ionized then a system is created in which another atom will be associated to the ionized specimen for it to become ionized.

    you are showing us right here that a system whether of electrical potential thru to an impact or even if i add, the photoelectric affect; something causes the potential change and if you drill it down to the atom to atom interraction (atomic scale) the cause will be the same in every case

    nope not really... i shared how the battery offers the observance of how EC is a 'system' between mass to create a potential difference. You just spout off Wrong. I have already explained how Ionization takes place - An electron is removed from, or added to an atom


    nope you were asked a question and you said "Sure, just as soon as you explain how the flavour of pink affects the smell of yellow."

    you were fishing and unable to keep focused and by that a medical description came to mind on symptons often observed in the same diagnosis

    asking for the symbol of what a man with all your depth uses to define the resonance upon a molecule or structure as to try and understand what you concider a chemical description is 'nonsensical'?

    We all know a hot molecule has greater resonance than a cold one, you would think that with all your educational background and experimental prowness you could just state how you address such an important property of energy upon mass that can apply to one atom at a time

    so then a hot cup does taste different than a cold cup of coffee?

    such that, it is all the same mass, just with 'kinetic energy' as you stated

    and since we know that the 'kinetic energy' of the molecules in the cup are not moving in an unobstructed direction could it be suggested that within the cup the liquid has a bunch of molecule occilating and then sharing that kinetic energy into a coherent resonate state? (Brownian motion)

    is the NaCl you are using the same NaCl of salt? Or perhaps you have another chemical example you wish to present? Perhaps van der waals/london force....?

    i do not believe salt 'crystals' are what you are talking about nor understood the question

    Perhaps i should ask the question in a clearer fashion; is every atom to atom that does combine, (creating a molecule), is it held together by energy?

    we all, already know, that no atoms even associate to interact without energy

    Electrostatic potential could be another thread if you like. Because even in your rendition it seems that you offered the idea that atoms can associate without energy but with EP ..... and it seems you forgot that it takes juice for the potential difference to create the EP in the first place. Think of rubbing a balloon upon your head.
     
  18. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Messages:
    10,890
    Irrelevant.

    Wrong. And I can prove it.

    If I mix sulfuric acid with with sodium, I sodium ions, those sodium ions combine with the sulfate ions to produce sodium sulfate.

    If I then mix that Sodium sulfate with barium nitrate, I get a lovely white precipitate of Barium Sulfate that I can then filter, and dry, and will remain perfectly stable.

    In doing these simple experiemnts, I have proven you wrong on three counts. If you were right, the Sodium Sulfate wouldn't form, and neither would the sodium nitrate, or the barium sulfate.

    No, you're showing us once again that you don't actually know what you're talking about.

    The explanation you offered was wrong.


    1. You completely missed the point I was making, and you've missed it more than once.
    2. You know less about Psychiatry than you do chemistry.

    By in large, yes.

    Are you sure of that? Maybe you want to do some reading up on the properties of Benzene.

    Most people might agree with that, yes.

    Yes.

    This is not brownian motion. Because the motion of the molexules making up the coffee is confined, then the heat energy must eventually be transfered to the walls of the coffee cup, and it's surroundings. Hence, a cup of hot coffee becomes a cup of cold coffee. This really is just highschool physics. Didn't you once claime to be a nuclear engineer?

    NaCl only has ONE MEANING. That's one of the reasons we have IUPAC in the first place, to make sure we're all talking the same language, of course, there's always the occasional crackpot, like you, that comes along with a 'good idea' and claims he's being persecuted for it.

    No, because neither of those are directly relevant to ionization. If you want to discuss VDW forces, start another thread.

    You don't believe in Salt crystals? So then what's in your salt shaker?

    I guess this image is faked then huh?

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    I've already clearly answered that question elsewhere.

    What relevance to the topic of this thread does this statement have?

    No.

    No. This is your misunderstanding of what i've said, nothing more.
     
  19. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Messages:
    10,890
    More to the point.

    Any green dot, which represents chloride, is surrounded by 6 sodium atoms (gray).

    Look at the chloride in the middle of the green octahedron, which of the 6 sodium atoms does it 'belong' to?

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  20. Bishadi Banned Banned

    Messages:
    2,745
    so when when a battery negative terminal is all juiced upon with electrons we can simply cap the positive or the side that gives up the electron because you say it is irrelevant?

    Let me see if we are on the same page before you start proving, are you suggesting an electron can be taken from other mass and that there is no relation to continue existing between the mass accepting the electron and the mass releasing the electron?

    Wouldn't that just go completely against conservation?

    Why is that?

    It is like saying you cannot combine water and dirt.

    Do you realize you came to the experiment with an ionized sulfate, to the system which is like putting a battery in a radio and stating the radio works without electricity?

    how is the fishing? Have you caught anything yet?

    Seems like you fishing in the wrong pond.

    awe so the rolls are truly opposite of what you shared; it is you who just stands up and says 'your wrong' ............. have i spoken (written) like that without any explanation of a method of observing the phenomenon?

    perhaps, you are just baiting for another argument?

    are you in heat? Seems you like u's so much i am beginning to think you are in season searching for more u's. Try using an I once in a while.

    but they use the evil word you fail to comprehend

    researchers discovered that all of the carbon-carbon bonds in benzene are of the same length of 140 picometres (pm). The C–C bond lengths are greater than a double bond (135pm) but shorter than a single bond (147pm). This intermediate distance is explained by electron delocalization: the electrons for C–C bonding are distributed equally between each of the six carbon atoms. One representation is that the structure exists as a superposition of so-called resonance structures, rather than either form individually

    if you wish to play with benzene we can open a thread on that too

    That is your 'because'?
    you are sharing equilibrium and for some reason lost your focus on the mass and energy within the cup

    Not a nuclear engineer unless designing a simple atomic device at 15, with all the math, yeild and schematics while within my own bedroom as a nuclear engineer, then could you send me some toilet paper to put on my wall and frame? That was almost 30 years ago...... but then again, i guess i could still use that old math and perhaps steal your job. I am sure i have an old peechee some where with that old junk.


    OK so basic table salt has no bonds? as you stated There is no 'molecule' of NaCl, just a conglomeration of Na+ and Cl- ions held together by mutual electrostatic attraction

    when you are ready, as i am still staring at salt to see how the mass is held together without bonds

    Does that mean as a gas or crystal, there is no bonds between the atoms and molecules too?

    cool dude

    i was thinking maybe i was the only one nuts around here
     
  21. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Messages:
    10,890
    You're misrepresenting what i've said.

    Correct.

    No.

    Because, for a start off, in the experimental pathway I described, by what you're saying, the hydrogen ions of the Sulfuric acid should be interminably bound to the sulfate ions of the sulfuric acid.

    Further, in the reaction pathway I described, the first step of the reaction is between the hydrogen ions, and the sodium metal. By your reasoning we should be seeing Sodium Hydride being formed, but that (obviously) is not the case. I say Obviously, because anyone with a background of highschool chemistry knows what gas is given off by the reaction, and how to test for it.

    No, it isn't (and last time I checked, muddy water was a suspension, not a solution, so you can't actually combine water and dirt, although some of the minerals that make up dirt are sparingly soluble, we're talking oceans worth of water to dissolve them.

    Wholly irrelevant, and completely wrong.

    I grow weary of your thinly veiled insults.

    This does not support your argument. You used the word resonance in the wrong context. This excerpt uses it correctly, and i'm well familiar with it's meaning, and causes at a quantum level (but explaining at that level involves schroedingers wave equation, which you've already stated you believe is wrong).

    Congratulations on missing the point of the example.

    You're misquoting me. You're deliberately misrepresenting what i've said in order to attack it (also a strawman fallacy).

    Also, I lost no focus.

    I doubt that very much. You have to be able to understand chemistry to do my job.

    Correct an 'Ionic Bond' is simply electrostatic attraction.

    Correct.

    Get a balloon, inflate it, rub it against a wollen surface, and hold it against a glass window. How did it stivk with no bonds?

    Not quite. Hydrogen bonds and dative bonds begin to complicate things a little.
     
  22. Bishadi Banned Banned

    Messages:
    2,745
    sorry charlie as you idea means there is no system between taking an electron from one atom and placing it upon another.

    you make it seem as if an electron is an universal particle of mass interchangable with any other mass.

    that would mean i should be able to take the electrons of any negative battery terminal and use them with any other positive terminal of any other battery not even in series or parallel to the circuit

    can you not see what your interpretation means?

    i spelled it out quite clearly with hopes you could think it thru but i was wrong

    this is incorrect and you really do not see it

    as to share the scenario to show the error for some reason you can't put the 2 together.

    just like when i suggest ionized mass is like a battery itself, you fail to comprehend the potential upon mass based on the ionization

    for example we eat food, the mass is not what we need, it is the energy upon the mass that is used and the mass is simply used to carry the energy


    ionization are energy upon mass associated to other mass. Meaning 2 bodies are entangled by the energy between them, even if separated.

    For example; people talk and can be bound by the energy captured creating a bias.....

    but crossing that line of combining knowledge with reality is the toughest part of science
     
  23. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Messages:
    10,890
    No. You're wrong here as well, and you're misrepresenting what i've said.

    You're completely ignoring the role of the electrolyte in a battery, something which I have already elaborated upon. No current will flow, because unless the terminals of the battery have contact through the electrolyte, the circuit will not be complete.

    Do try and keep up, do try and keep honest.

    So far all you have done is bastardize my scenario, and misrepresent it.

    Incoherrent.

    Nonsensical.

    It is the chemical potential energy stored within the chemical bonds of the food (among other things).

    No, it doesn't, and i've already provided specific exampls that prove this wrong.

    Nonsensical

    In order to do this, you must first have some basic understanding. Try cracking open an introductory chemistry textbook, you'll find it enlightening.
     

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