What do you think of Arabs, Muslims and Islam?
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Arabs:
Saudi Arabia in particular? Closed society. Not terribly open-minded.. somewhat intolerant and oppressive toward certain groups or individuals. For the ruling class (royalty, clerics, oil men, etc.), self-importance, like the ruling class of just about any society.
I don't know a whole lot, but I think what I just described is fairly accurate.
Muslims and Islam:
Both extremism and moderation or temperance comes to mind. Both archaic and backwards and modern and average. Basically the same as any religion, though with more openly theocratic governments which tend to be oppressive. It varies too much with the region and country to make too many generalizations.
Why do you ask such things?
Saudi Arabia in particular? Closed society. Not terribly open-minded.. somewhat intolerant and oppressive toward certain groups or individuals. For the ruling class (royalty, clerics, oil men, etc.), self-importance, like the ruling class of just about any society.
I don't know a whole lot, but I think what I just described is fairly accurate.
Muslims and Islam:
Both extremism and moderation or temperance comes to mind. Both archaic and backwards and modern and average. Basically the same as any religion, though with more openly theocratic governments which tend to be oppressive. It varies too much with the region and country to make too many generalizations.
Why do you ask such things?
Hi Shadow, I guess you have had the extraordinary good luck to run into Geoff, Michael and maybe some other anti-Muslims here. Rest assured, it could be worse, you could have met (Q) for instance 
Don't worry about their opinions about Muslims or Islam, you're not going to change their minds about it. Its not worth getting upset over. This is a "science" forum and as a theist, it is their duty to treat you like a backward savage
If it bothers you so much just keep in mind that nothing you say will change their opinions and if that is hard to get used to, find some other forum where people are more reasonable.
edit: And this thread should be in About the Members or Site Feedback
Don't worry about their opinions about Muslims or Islam, you're not going to change their minds about it. Its not worth getting upset over. This is a "science" forum and as a theist, it is their duty to treat you like a backward savage
If it bothers you so much just keep in mind that nothing you say will change their opinions and if that is hard to get used to, find some other forum where people are more reasonable.
edit: And this thread should be in About the Members or Site Feedback
.
i'm askign such things cause, there was someone , in anotehr topic on myne, saying islam is a blood relegion, allah wihc it means god, love killing jews, andb lablabla, and all those terrible stuff and more,
and i'm not talking just about saudi arabia,
about, Tunisia, Moroco, Syria, Lebanon, Kuwait, Jordan, Qatar, ...
all peopel are propably liek each other in all those contries, but not exactly, the extresmist, donest mean terrorists, i'm from tunisia and we just dont know why, y there, in saudi arabia, wear a hijab all in black, and cover their faces, we know that they are very relegion, but not all, if you didnt know, even in islam, it's forbiden to be extremest, or very relegion, islam say that peopel must be balenced, some relegion, without forgetting it, and live he's life, and enjoy it, effcorse, without going too far in that, like drugs and stuff,
tunisia and most of the maghreb contries, are liberal islamic contry, and democratic, not 100percent democratic, because we don't accept gay marriage, but it is, peopel can have sexual life, can be relegion, can be or do anything he wants,
about some things, that most peopel think about us, is that when there is a chritian or a jew living among us, we just kill him, or treat him like a slave, or something like that, but it's just not true, (you cant just know about us from the media, also, the media, everywhere, esspecialy the news channels, most times don't show only teh bad and negativre news and thoghts,) also, it's not against the law to go chiritian or jew or anyother relegion, even islam say that we shouldnt make anyone hate his relegion or his culture, and we should never force him to convert, if he's convinced, ok, if not, ok, not a problem,
another point, you alwats wonder why some women wear the hijab that it's all in black and cover teh hall face, actullay, we don't even know why here,
many womens here wear the hijab, but they don't wear the extremist one, just wear normal strict clothes, and cover their hair, with hats, colerfull hijab, or anything that cover their hair, and also, not all of them wear the hijab,
some people may think that we force them to, but no,
so, is there anyquestons that you have in your mind, like those kind of question, i just want to know, how or what do you think about us,
just curious, i want find it weird if an american here come up and say, YOU ARE TERRORISTS, YOU ARE BARBARIAN, YOU ARE ...
blablabla
lol, i don't beleive my self that i'm discussing about this,
i'm askign such things cause, there was someone , in anotehr topic on myne, saying islam is a blood relegion, allah wihc it means god, love killing jews, andb lablabla, and all those terrible stuff and more,
and i'm not talking just about saudi arabia,
about, Tunisia, Moroco, Syria, Lebanon, Kuwait, Jordan, Qatar, ...
all peopel are propably liek each other in all those contries, but not exactly, the extresmist, donest mean terrorists, i'm from tunisia and we just dont know why, y there, in saudi arabia, wear a hijab all in black, and cover their faces, we know that they are very relegion, but not all, if you didnt know, even in islam, it's forbiden to be extremest, or very relegion, islam say that peopel must be balenced, some relegion, without forgetting it, and live he's life, and enjoy it, effcorse, without going too far in that, like drugs and stuff,
tunisia and most of the maghreb contries, are liberal islamic contry, and democratic, not 100percent democratic, because we don't accept gay marriage, but it is, peopel can have sexual life, can be relegion, can be or do anything he wants,
about some things, that most peopel think about us, is that when there is a chritian or a jew living among us, we just kill him, or treat him like a slave, or something like that, but it's just not true, (you cant just know about us from the media, also, the media, everywhere, esspecialy the news channels, most times don't show only teh bad and negativre news and thoghts,) also, it's not against the law to go chiritian or jew or anyother relegion, even islam say that we shouldnt make anyone hate his relegion or his culture, and we should never force him to convert, if he's convinced, ok, if not, ok, not a problem,
another point, you alwats wonder why some women wear the hijab that it's all in black and cover teh hall face, actullay, we don't even know why here,
many womens here wear the hijab, but they don't wear the extremist one, just wear normal strict clothes, and cover their hair, with hats, colerfull hijab, or anything that cover their hair, and also, not all of them wear the hijab,
some people may think that we force them to, but no,
so, is there anyquestons that you have in your mind, like those kind of question, i just want to know, how or what do you think about us,
just curious, i want find it weird if an american here come up and say, YOU ARE TERRORISTS, YOU ARE BARBARIAN, YOU ARE ...
blablabla
lol, i don't beleive my self that i'm discussing about this,
.
yeah s.a.m., ur right, but what relly pissmeoff, that each time i make a topic, they start talkign about relegion and stuff,
i just maked a topic to know what they think, and i'm nto going to post those kinds of topics anymore, and yeah, thanks, i'll try to see other forums, european forums, europeans are open minded, and know facts,
yeah, u' right, nothing want change their minds
yeah s.a.m., ur right, but what relly pissmeoff, that each time i make a topic, they start talkign about relegion and stuff,
i just maked a topic to know what they think, and i'm nto going to post those kinds of topics anymore, and yeah, thanks, i'll try to see other forums, european forums, europeans are open minded, and know facts,
yeah, u' right, nothing want change their minds
dsl, mafhemtekch, khalli walli?Yallah Tunisi, Khalli walli, Inta ma'lek?
Sorry I don't speak Tunisian, much less understand it. Khalli walli yaani, just let it be. Hada loghaat al arabiya baddu.
mnin inti?
Ana hindi. Maafish arabi.
Bas kalaam shoya
Sorry I don't speak Tunisian, much less understand it. Khalli walli yaani, just let it be. Hada loghaat al arabiya baddu.
Ana hindi. Maafish arabi.
Bas kalaam shoya
hehehe, ok, great, netcharfou,
nice to meet you
ah, hehehehe, netcharfou,
Sah, Ana shogul bil saudia khams sanain.
Ariftu wahed Tunisi fani-al amaliya hinak bas ma arif kaif kalaam tunisi, maafish zai arabi assaudia, kaman loghat maghribi
Inta arif kalaam assaudia?
aish netcharfou?
Well, does it really surprise you when you choose a header that goes like this "Islam got it first.."
How can you not expect that this subject will automatically involve religion?
and I think you're just asking for it.
There are positive and negative aspects to Islam and Arab culture:
Positive:
The positive aspects are that Moslems have a great and vibrant culture, have helped to advance mathematics, astronomy and the arts when the world was in the dark ages, great literary works have come out of Islam, “1001 Arabian Nights”, the “Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam”, they set up “The House of Wisdom” to translate and preserve books for the study of humanities and for sciences, including mathematics, astronomy, medicine, chemistry, zoology and geography. Drawing on Persian, Indian and Greek texts—including those of Pythagoras, Plato, Aristotle, Hippocrates, Euclid, Plotinus, Galen, Sushruta, Charaka, Aryabhata, Socrates and Brahmagupta—the scholars there accumulated a great collection of world knowledge, which otherwise would have been lost to the world.
Islamic Architecture incorporates some of the beautiful building s in the world and has helped in modern notions is civic design and landscape gardens. Moslems can be very generous and compassionate people, generally keep the promises they make. Persian is probably one of the most melodic and intricate languages in the world with a many layers and an ingrained sense of humor.
And Lawrence of Arabia is a great film.
Negative
Moslems flew two planes into the World Trade Centre, other Moslems danced in the streets when they found out about it, and Moslems send suicide bombers into airports, buses and trains to kill people. They have Fatwa’s against authors and Honor Killings of young women in their own families. Sharia Law makes women into chattels of their husbands and second class citizens.
Most of the Koran was plagiarized from the Old Testament, and Islam is now under pressure because it’s supposed to expand into new territories but can’t. Israel has even usurped so called Arab lands (taken by conquest) which is why it’s so reviled, it has not only taken the land by conquest it is a symbol of the failure of Islam as a power.
The sort of thinking that personifies Islam has no real place in the 21 century and unless Moslem countries crack down on some of the more extreme aspects of this religion (Like Turkey did) they are fated to always remain second rate as modern nations.
.
na3am, kollouha lougha arabia, lakinnaha takhtalifou bikhtilef addawla, lakkinnaha kollouha moutakariba,
na3am, kollouha lougha arabia, lakinnaha takhtalifou bikhtilef addawla, lakkinnaha kollouha moutakariba,
well, yeah, maybe, but i didnt mean to mean that the relegion did, but, hmm, ok, i'll change it's name,
and about saying that i think, that you think, not all of you effcorse, and i meant some peopel from the united states, that they are kinda racists when it comes about relegion or culture, so, don't take all what i say seriously,
i just say things
true, about the nagtive side, but first, you cant call, muslims sended suciders, and muslims did, and muslims did, you should say the muslim terrorists, or simply terrorists, cause, there's not just muslim terrorists, by saying, muslim did and and muslim did, is like, saying that all muslims are terrorists,
second, about the women have a second class in the society, yes, and no, in some contries, like, saudi arabia, or u.a.e. maybe, women do have second class, but that doesnt mean that they are all like that, i mean, treated badly and stuff, they are second class, when it comes about work, politics, and economy stuff, but they are treated normal and good, maybe there's always bad things,
as we all know, in every place on earth; there's always good and bad, you can find some bad people in u.s.a. or india. or anyother place, that can be even worse that terrorists, Also, in other islamic contires, they are islamic liberal contries, and women are treated ecaully to men, exept very some people, that still have an old, or a norrowmind, women, for example in tunisia, algeria, libya... do have work, do go to schools, do drive trucks, do work in industry, do their projects financial or in studies, women also as men, work in every thing just like men, even in police stations,
so, things, in the arab world, and in the muslim world in general, are different from a contry to another, but they all have the same root, and the same culture, exept some differences,
some people, can be extremists, or, do things by the name of islam, or treat women badly or kill them(treating women badly, i don't know, women have their honor in our societies, maybe some are "hores" and treated badly, )
so, anyway, if people, that they are extremists, and pertend that they are doing what islam says, they actually don't, or understand islam wrongly,
here's an example in islam,
there's two brothers, one always stay and pray at the mosque, and the second, don't pray, but he work, and provide food and money for his brother and his family, who do you think the go to heaven, if you beleive in it, anyway, the second one will,
another example, two womens, oen of those womens, is very relegious, and good pearson, puted a cat in a cage, and didnt let her eat, and second, is not a very good pearson, she have background, she helped a cat, feeded him, and cared of him, the first woman will go to hell, and the second will go to heaven, because of a cat,
so, islam, if peopel realyl applide it, and actullay i admit that i don't apply it all,
it's forbiden in islam to be extremist, a pearson must work hard, and enjoy life, without forgrtting his duty to god, to pray, that's all, not being extremists, praying all the time, and doing no work,
also, the hijab that covers teh hall face, that some women wear it in teh middle east, islam don't say that, islam just say, that women should wear strict clothes, doesnt mean to be all black, and cover all the face and stuff, wear anything, aslong it will cover her body, but she can do anyanything at her house with her husband, every thing is ok, when it comes about her and her husband,
also, islam say that if you killed a man or woman or a child, is like killing the hal humanity, effcorse, it's ok, when you have too, when you defend your self, If you Had to,
why do the arabic, or islamic terretories should be expanded? if in the past, the islamic empire expanded, not because the relegion say so,
so when rome expanded, does that mean that their relegion say so?
true what you said, about, treating women like second class(but not in all islamic contries, my school principle is a woman, also, my mathematiqeus and physics teachers) about all muslims sended bombes, not true, not muslims did, but terrorists did,
about the islam say to expand always, and kill non-muslims and stuff, also not true,
i'm not denying that some muslim contires, still have problems, but not all,
at least, in tunisia, i didnt see anyproblems, exept a scrued national soccer teamn, but it's getting better by time,
anyway, after all, there will be always there, racists, terrorists, criminals, extremists, not just in the muslim world, even in the western and the rest of the eastern world, it's just anywhere, it may be true the problems that soem arab contries have,but not that seriously, also, most of the arabic, contries, are not oil contries, and they still deelopping, tunisia for example will be the most importante industrual hub in the medeterenian sea by 2016, also, the other maghreb contires, heading to be lot better, they are also heading to a medeterenian union, and a mghreb union, that contain, tunisia, algeria, moroco, libya
Not anti-Muslim, anti-Islam. There's a difference.Hi Shadow, I guess you have had the extraordinary good luck to run into Geoff, Michael and maybe some other anti-Muslims here. Rest assured, it could be worse, you could have met (Q) for instance
Shadow,
It completely depends on the "Arab" person. It should be noted that "Arab" is a culture. As in language, food, way of doing things. I like Arab food, I went to an Arab restaurant last night and grilled chicken and falafa. I know Arab atheists, Muslims, Jews, Christians etc...
So, it depends on the person.
I don't find much, if anything, admirable and progressive about Islam. But, I don't know, maybe you can tell me a few ideas Islam brings to Western nations (or Eastern) that is going to better our societies. Ideas we don't already have here. Any ideas you'd like to offer?
IMO many Arabs can't see they have a culture outside of "Islam". Which is too bad. One example, many Arabs are of the opinion that European colonization and the Christian Crusades were bad. However, this same "Arab" hypocritically thinks Arab colonization and the Islamic Crusades were "glorious". They celebrate their colonization of the other countries of the middle east. How many Arabs think "Arabic" is God's language? How many Arabs think it's great they can build a Mosque in Paris or London or New York but think it should be Illegal to build a Hindu Temple in Riyadh? Just about every Muslim think it's fine to teach their kids the Bible is corrupted BUT at the same time have a big problem when other people criticize the Qur'an, or when Christians teach their kids the Qur'an is from Satan.
So, it's not "Arabs" or "Muslims" the problem is Islam. All you need to do is look over to Indonesia or Malaysia and see many of the same problems they have people have those same problems in the ME due to "Islam" and it's inherent intolerance of other people's belief systems and endemic racial and bigot ideology that accompany it.
Notice in an[URL="http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/06/15/interview with an arab atheist/URL] the first thing he says is that he loves Arab literature and music. See, this is good. Normal.
Lastly, we've worked hard in the West to work PAST religious intolerance and this is the ONLY reasons there are Muslims living here - most of us see Islam and Islamic countries as a throw back to the dark ages, it's not welcomed. Which is why it's important we support Arab culture as in food, music, literature, so that Arab people migrating have something OTHER than Islam to define who they are. So maybe their kids integrate instead of forming Islamic ghettos full of intolerant bigoted Islamic fundamentalists.
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Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
I've known several Palestinians and a couple of second-generation Lebanese-Americans, who identify themselves as Arabs even though by DNA they're more closely related to the Jews. Other than that I've met a few people from other Arab countries. I don't think this is a large enough sample to draw statistical generalizations from, especially since people who choose to leave their homeland and migrate to America (or anywhere else) cannot possibly be representative samples of the vast majority who stay home. So my opinion of Arabs is largely based on hearsay, filtered through the presumably astute brain of a well-traveled and -educated man who is skeptical of ethnic hostility.
That said, my opinion is that Arabs differ from one another as much as any people. I like the good ones and don't like the bad ones, and since I haven't met them yet I don't know which is which.
However from what I've read I'm satisfied that Arabs as a transnational population do not differ too much from any other people, in that the vast majority of them are primarily concerned with the daily business of taking care of their families and making their communities better. That vast majority probably don't think about Americans any more often than I think about them. I'm satisfied that that vast majority tries to do what they think is right and honorable. Some live in countries where they are manipulated by their leaders to think ill of America, and some are not. Some live in countries that have been damaged by recent American military actions, and it's easy to understand why that might cause them to harbor animosity toward America. Since I don't support those actions and vote against the politicians who do, I try not to take it personally, and I'm sure most Arabs understand that not all Americans support our government's foolishness and if we had a chance to discuss it they'd probably exclude me from their animosity. Those who have been attacked by Israel know that most of Israel's military might is the result of American aid, so exactly the same comments apply, since I think Israel should never have been created and that its current leaders should be in prison.
I have known quite a few Iranians and much of the above commentary about Arabs applies to all Muslims. The Iranians who migrated to America are the ones who did not want to live under the regime of the Ayatollahs so they do not represent most of the people who stayed. Nonetheless I think most of the people in Iran can be described in the same words I used for the Arabs. And the same applies to the people of Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Kyrgyzstan, Nigeria, Turkey, Albania, and all other non-Arab Muslim lands.
Most of you know how I feel about the Abrahamic religions. Abrahamism is a model of the universe based on supernaturalism, which contradicts the premise of the natural universe as a closed system, one of the founding premises of science. Abrahamism is based on unreasoned faith rather than empirical observation and rational deduction, and this too contradicts science, namely the evidence- and reason-based scientific method itself. For these reasons I can have no respect for Abrahamic religion.
Furthermore, I observe that the three Abrahamic philosophies, Judaism, Christianity and Islam, encourage in their followers a sense of superiority over outsiders. This is tribalism, one of our species' basic instincts, but one that we have been struggling to overcome with reasoned and learned behavior for eleven thousand years, since the Agricultural Revolution got tribes to come together in permanent settlements. As civilization has progressed, we have been slowly expanding our notion of "tribe" to include larger and larger populations, but that expansion has been stalled by Abrahamism. Even worse, it often tears these large populations apart and foments internal warfare, and even now seems determined to start a war between the three major Abrahamic sects, Judaism, Christianity and Islam, which seem to be irreconcilable.
My opinion is that the advance of civilization will remain stalled, and humans will continue to live in large rival tribes that aim weapons at each other, until all the Abrahamic religions die out and let us move on.
I know Sam is waiting to jump in and point out communism, but communism is an offshoot of Christian philosophy: that what a man takes from civilization need not correlate with what he gives back because God will not allow civilization to collapse if its citizens are righteous.
Judaism has already become a largely secular philosophy among most of its members, with the supernatural aspect stressed only on major holidays. Christianity has reached the same stage in many countries, although it's not quite there yet in large parts of the United States.
Islam is the youngest of the three Abrahamic religions so it is at the stage where Christianity was about six hundred years ago. Many Muslims take the Quran literally as a history book, many understand it as a collection of very helpful metaphors, and others fall somewhere in between. Islam could be heading into its Reformation, Renaissance and Enlightenment, from which it will emerge as a blend of secular philosophy and metaphor-based rituals. Unfortunately if Christianity is a model, that process took several centuries and was one of the bloodiest periods in European history. And this was before the invention of nuclear weapons.
Regardless of these observations, it appears that there is nothing any of us can do about the threat against civilization that the Abrahamic religions represent. To attempt to wipe them out by force would make us no better than the worst of them and therefore even if the attempt were successful we would lose. Information campaigns can be launched, but rationality has little impact on people who by definition don't believe in rational processes and empirical observation.
All we can do is wait and hope for the best. Anything else would be beneath us.
But I'm pretty sure that meddling in the affairs of the people of the Middle East is not making the situation any better. It's time to bring all the troops home, let the people there solve their own problems, and keep our fingers crossed.
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