What ARE 'UFOs' and 'ET' contacts?

What are you talking about? What the heck is a "grokk?" And I doubt that you really have anything relevant to say, otherwise you would be clear, particularly in your lazy quoting method.

 

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more like your lazy reading manner mate

but whats this ad hominem got to do with the current debate?

 

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All I say is where's the SOLID EVIDENCE, like a piece of a ship or a part of an aliens body, anything that could substantiate any of these so called "sightings". I'm not doubting that alien life exists, it's just that none of them have visited Earth. Imagine how small Earth is wnen lookinbg at it from say our nearest solar system which is over 7 light years away. Looking for Earth from that distance would be very difficult to do then you have to travel here not knowing what's going to be found.

 

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And there you have it. Modern America is so amateurish that their [crafty] blunders keep unravelling like badly knitted mittens -- oops! Are those YOUR hands? A COMMISSION!!! WHERE'S THE PRESS!?!

The point is, according to the tales we hear about UFOs and aliens, their technology is on the cutting-edge of mind-boggling disbelief. And if that is the case -- no matter how cleverly you debunk -- then it seems to me that their superior technology must also be matched with a superior craftiness for concealment. "Evidence" is not for you to demand. Evidently.

quote: Looking for Earth from that distance would be very difficult to do then you have to travel here not knowing what's going to be found.

A perfect example of a typical myopic attitude -- always appraising competency by your current standards is another roadblock you bums keep tripping over.

 

As the poster below rightly reponds to that viewpoint. the way we are even THINKINg about this is thought that is caught up in the present paradigm. you admit that what we know now would seem strange to our ancestors right...you know a computer for example. so the thought that craft have to negotiate miles like we would is like said being stuck in our way of seeing things....? and that's what i mean by openmindedness

 

Thing is, we are not all blessed with a statistical-type mind, like the type that demands categorically without exception to certify experience via an accredited and specific filter, a filter that will never allow anything to outshine current criteria of current knowledge. But whose current knowledge are we talking about?

SinWalker may rest assured that nothing will surpass him.

But his peace of mind won't annul anything. Because he is outside the loop. He is not current.

 

Non of us are currebnt by the Aliens standards... we sit here looking skywrd + flaming each other about them. Half of us dont want to believe they're there. But of course theyre all the time watchin from amongst us and cackling, like witches used to.. :m:

 

it's like this for me..to make it as clear as i can, my position:

I DO NOT KNOW WHAT 'THEY' ARE

i refuse to reduce this not-knowing--ie., class every report etc into A category, like for example 'earth lights' or 'hoaxes'

so i am saying 'i don't know'. do you agree that this position is openmindedness? if not explain as fully as you can why it is not.

one of The most remrakable film footage i have ever seen regarding UFOs was from Brazil at the time of the eclipse in approx 1990. this was a time when many people were looking UP, and many took video films etc. you can plainly see a UFO playing what seems to be hide and seek behind a cloud

i cannot see stuff like that, and push it away in my brain as 'anecdotal'...yeah? i've just fukin SEEn it with my own eyes

i don't know what it IS. but i have seen it

could the film(s) have been faked? was it one massive big hoax/

is callin it that a cop out. a makiing it even more complex than it is. or reducing it cause you cannot accept NOT KNOWING

and a question for the scientists and sympathizers here who seem quite defensive about this subject. Just say it WAs proven that the ufos in Brazil were a mystery. how would you deal with that from your scientific perspective?

 

Sure, thats open minded. I wont claim to know much about astronomy or physics or philosophy, but I dont PRETEND to know when someon asks me about 1 of those topics.. I wont invent a view on something + stick to it no matter what, like all these ufo freaks or conspiracists.

Thats what bugs about ufo "research", it can get to be more about faith than logic + evidence. People want to believe in aliens so they fail to see any flaws with the dodgey films, photos, LSD style stories - however crap.

 

Agreed. So what we have are two groups: the skeptics, and the want-to-believers. But quietly, on the sidelines, is a third group -- those who are actually "involved". But the skeptics are offended by this third group because these people are not scientifically trained, hence unable to academically formalize their "experiences" -- and the W-T-Bs are jumping all over the third group like jelly beans, driving an already delicate situation frantically off the edge. End result: cacophony. But then again, what else is new in human relations?

 

That's a real good summary of the situation i reckon, anroid.>v2

There also cant be anything more patronizing and condescending to people who HAVe experienced strange events to be told by sceptics that they are merely experiencing 'chemicals' or whatnot. jmight as well say, like in them old b movies 'you've been in the sun too long'

how i appraoch this subject is not to JUSt foucus on it. for example, as you said there are basically two camps, the sceptics and the UFO obsessives. now from my experience, all these two camps do is focus on their set-beliefs. the sceptic will trust mechansitic science as being THE arbiter of what is truth....and the UFOlogist will stick with hir shit

what i do and would encourage is speading out one's research. look at mythology...at ancient beliefs in other entities....look at patriarchal myth and what it is doing.....look at what policical covert operations is doing.....you know, just let yourself get insights from whereever....this is how i try and keep openminded

 

Well, Duendy, I have had an abduction experience myself. Except I know it was nothing more than a bad dream. Night terrors, hypnogogic hallucination, whatever you want to call it. It was witnessed by a third party, and I know what I experienced wasn't real.

But what about people without 3rd party perspective? Enough will believe their experience was real. Doesn't mean it was anything different to mine, however.

My set belief that I firmly believe there must be intelligent life elsewhere in the Universe? My only doubt, is that this other intelligent life has overcome the problems required to travel here, and that we have no evidence for them being here.

That is how we determine the truth. It's why we use forensic science in courtrooms, not mediums.

 

hmmmm, and also psuedo-science in the name of 'mental health' is also used in courtrooms, but that doesn't make thaT REAL.

 

So why parade it is as an abduction? Why not say on the outset: I had a bad dream. But then you wouldn't be able to get your foot in the door, right? One of those, "Let Me In Or I'll Blow Your House Down. Wait A Minute, I'll Blow Your House Down Anyways!"

 

I had an alien abduction experience. It was an experience, because I experiencd it, and it contained aliens, who were coming to take me away. What other terms should I use?

Just because I know it was a dream, doesn't diminish the fact that it was still the same type of experience many others have. Others not knowing they have merely had a bad dream doesn't make their experience more real, don't you understand that?

What you don't like about my experience, is that is offers objective insight into the phenomena. You, far from being open minded, want to discard my experience, because it doesn't fit with your closed minded predetermned conclusions. You aren't open to the suggestion, that many abduction experiences aren't real!

 

Here's my original post;

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=36591

Add comments to that thread or this.

 

Oh, Ive had a few dreams about aliens.. the reason I knew they werent real was because they always lookd like ones Id seen on tv.

The experiences people take seriously seem to have vague aliens who cant be described in detail - "greys" or furry giants or something, or beings masked
+ suited so they cant be seen. It might be more convincng if we had reports of aliens who look NOTHING like humans - not even human shaped.

For all we know,, still it might be true that everyone in the galaxy has 2 arms + 2 legs

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Just dosn't seems likely.

 

Seems lots of people have common themes, not because there is any thruth in their experiences, but because we have all seen the same images, and use them in our dreams.

Yeah, I've often thought about this one, and I'm not sure about most likely physiology at all. I'd love it if alien races were significantly different from humans, more legs, tentacles instead of limbs, some major physical difference, but I guess evolutionary pressures are the same, and may shape similar bodies.

Whatever the circumstance, our intelligent alien species would be in a far better position to have got where ther are if they are an apex predator. So they need intelligence, hence a big brain, and somewhere to store it. They need to be quick, and have limbs that are dexterous, and have some opposable components. They need to be able to judge their environment in 3d, so either binocular vision of some kind, or sonar, or both, and they need to be able to communicate, so some way of making noise, and receiving it (a given, if they use sonar)

I think that's pretty much the minimum, and it does leave quite a bit of room for manouvering.

 

OK, i've read it. you say that you found yourself sat up and felt paralyzed--with fear, right? so if say you'd wanted to get up you couldn't? so you interpret it to be 'sleep paralysis'. also you have witnesses that saw you asleep, and no alien and even outside no craft

well, it is not good enough...hehehe

seriously. i respect you have had a big experience (i am interested to know. is it THe only Big Experience you've had in your life?), but you must admit that it is unique for you and others who have had similar experiences, but--and this is the important point--it's NOT THE same as the other DIVERSe experiences others have had. where some describe very detailed accounts of being able to move about in abduction experiences, and where witnesses have been able to view abductions. i don't have this story available at the moment, but it is a fmous abduction case.
From my memory an offical was actually being chaffuered to a meeting in NYC where he and others actually saw a craft beaming up a body from an apartment building. what about that?......at least admit that that wasn't anything like yours

seeing you told me yourse i will give a brief outline of mine....it happened qute a few years back. i'd gone to bed at night. i wake up and go to the toilet. when i get therer i can pee. when i return to my room i see my body lying asleep on the bed. on either side are two people, a man and woman. kneeling with their knees pointing the same direction as top of my head.
In shock i then see them both half turn and telepathically assure me not to be scared
then they get up and glide me down stairs. this is defintaely not like a 'normal' dream where scenes shift in surreal ways. throughout all the fixtures and furnishings of the house are where they are..........after exploring, lookinf in a mirror (wher i look like me, but very weird too), i go into the other room..............i meet two characers who look like people close to me. i get 'attacked' and am in terror. sudden;t they take off the human masks and underneath they look like Satyrs with curly horns. i do a swift u-trun in terror...run up the stiars to me bed and seeing body dive 'in'. once in i feel like i am tripping (though i had not had any hallucinogens)

now, i dont know WHAt it was. i am not as certain as you it was just this just that. what i DO know is that it was unique. i cant compare it with say the 'alien abduction' i briefly described above

what these experiences do, and should do, is tease us out of our materialistic certainties

 

Not quite. My experience was that I was laying in bed, on my back, looking up at a white face, hovering over the end of the bed, and I was paralysed. I was very scared because of this, and started trying to scream, and lash out at this stranger/alien. Eventually, I managed to sit up, scream, and put my arms up in a defensive position, ready to punch the invader.

My girlfriend reported that my experience started when I was face down, that's when I started thrashing. I was dreaming I was on my back, but actually on my front. I managed to spin over when the paralysis stopped, but the transistion was blurred, and I didn't know I'd done that. The experience was very real, had I been alone, I might have gone looking for whatever it was I thought I'd seen, and I'd have certainly checked the doors and windows were shut!

I've had a few other experiences similar to this, two others at least involving another person. One was a dark haired female, who was strangling me with one hand, and smiling at the same time. In that dream, I was sat up in bed, and I awoke, to see her walk up to me, put her hand out, and start to cruch my windpipe. everything in the room in the dream was exactly as it was in reality (bed side light on, book I'd fallen asleep reading on my lap, the works). I managed to scream, and lash out, and when I finished lashing out, she was gone (ie, I'd awoken) and I then ran around the house checking doors and windows (I was alone at the time this one occurred)

Sorry, is it unique or similar? What are you trying to say?

One single experience cannot be the same as a range of diverse experiences, what are you trying to say here? That some people have different experiences, so mine is invalid? Well plenty of people have very similar experiences to mine and call them 'abduction', that is my point.

That's just a vivid dream, not even hypnogogic or night terrors.

It wasn't like mine, no. I have a direct witness for my experience, and it actually happened. I'd love to see a reputable source for your story, but it sounds like an urban myth. Maybe the guy just fell asleep in the back of his limo, dreamt the whole thing, and the peon driving daren't contradict him?

Yours sounds a lot like my first experience where I was strangled, except you had more dream before the hypnogogic part.

Let's see, you went to bed, fell asleep, and had a wierd experience. Hmmm, could it have been a vivid dream?

Nope, they're just dreams. Nothing mystic, just random neurons firing.