Weed and an increase in intelligence.

Discussion in 'General Science & Technology' started by Klippymitch, Aug 31, 2007.

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  1. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    It is easy to speculate on the past but there are many great scientists that never used drugs of any type, except for liqueur. There COULD have been a few great people that MIGHT have used something but to base your assumption that drugs somehow enhance or stimulate ones brain to create more stimulation to create more things is ridiculous.
     
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  3. Oniw17 ascetic, sage, diogenes, bum? Valued Senior Member

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    Can you prove that anyone who was alive before 1860 never used any drugs, or are you just speculating aswell?
     
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  5. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

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    "It is easy to speculate on the past"
     
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  7. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    I never made the statement that "people can somehow become more creative when on drugs, pot or other chemicals". So I don't have to provide any information only those making such statement do to prove their point.
     
  8. Oniw17 ascetic, sage, diogenes, bum? Valued Senior Member

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    Neither did I. However you did make the statement that many great scientists never used any drugs. 90%, I thought. Can you prove that even one great scientist from "past history" never used any drugs?
     
  9. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    No.
     
  10. Faerynght Registered Senior Member

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    Why would you not classify it as a drug it is, it has risks and benefits just like any other drug regardless of the scheduled class. Marijuana does have an affect on neuronal activity. It also affects development in gene expression during development because it not only can cross the placental barrier but also be secreted during lactation.
     
  11. Oniw17 ascetic, sage, diogenes, bum? Valued Senior Member

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    What type of effect?
     
  12. Faerynght Registered Senior Member

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    "Cannabinoids seem to be also able to influence the expression of genes encoding for neuron-glia cell adhesion molecules, which supports a potential influence of cannabinoids on the processes of cell proliferation, neuronal migration or axonal elongation in which these proteins are involved. In support of this possibility, CB1 receptors, which represent the major targets for the action of cannabinoids, are abundantly expressed in certain brain regions, such as the subventricular areas, which have been involved in these processes during brain development. Finally, cannabinoids might also be involved in the apoptotic death that occurs during brain development, possibly by influencing the expression of Bcl-2/Bax system. Also in support of this option, CB1 receptors are transiently expressed during brain development in different group of neurons which do not contain these receptors in the adult brain."

    Neurotox Res. 2004;6(5):389-401.Links
    Cannabinoids and gene expression during brain development.
    Fernández-Ruiz J, Gómez M, Hernández M, de Miguel R, Ramos JA.

    Department of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, Faculty of Medicine, Complutense University, Ciudad Universitaria s/n, 28040-Madrid, Spain. jjfr@med.ucm.es
     
  13. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    You've missed my point or else I did not express it clearly. I'm not saying that a computer programmer will become a guitar virtuoso by smoking pot, only that he might find some balance in his life by being able to spend some of it exercising his right hemisphere. Same for the attorney, who is not going to be the next Kierkegaard, but being able to get out of his analytical way of thinking for a few hours and see the world from a different viewpoint might make his life more enjoyable.
    Boy you Brits do the weirdest stuff. Nobody on this side does that.
    Huh? Most people have a maximum level beyond which they just can't get any higher--unlike alcohol which keeps getting you more drunk until you become unconscious or dead. But at lower doses the more THC you get in your bloodstream, the more effect you feel. People cut expensive drugs with cheaper ones, as a way to save money (or hard-to-find drugs) by substituting a little bit of a different kind of intoxication for a little bit of the primary drug's effect. But with marijuana the usual cutting agent is alcohol, not tobacco, and the cutting is virtual, a reefer in one hand and a glass in the other, not physical blending.
    That will take some digging. It was reported in the Washington Post, probably in 2005. I'll have to root through the archives.
    Science is precisely the wrong thing to expect to be enhanced by marijuana, since it is a logical, left-brained activity and in my observation that is the type of cognitive ability that marijuana inhibits. My point is that people who normally can't accomplish anything in a right-brained activity sometimes find that they have better luck when a little marijuana suppresses their left-brained cognition. And I'm not implying that these people foresake science, engineering or the law to take up new careers in right-brained activities, merely that they find the occasional experience of that nature enriches their life.

    I have also observed people listen to a piece of music or look at a work of visual art while stoned, one they never were able to appreciate, and hear or see something that had eluded them so that they finally appreciate it. And the ability to hear or see that does not fade away with the intoxication. That is a textbook example of an enriched life, brought on by a temporary rebalancing of the power of the left and right hemispheres.

    As I have already posted, perhaps in a different thread, pleasure is a legitimate pursuit in one's life. The ability to achieve pleasure is a perfectly valid reason that a given activity should be legally permitted. Of course many pleasurable pursuits involve taking risks. And the only person who must be given the right to perform that cost-benefit risk analysis is the individual.
     
  14. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    And all I was trying to express is that those with great minds will use them without needing any type of stimulations. I brought up the past to show that those great people in those earlier days did't have many frugs to do and no one can prove they actually did do any that were availabe for pleasure. I'm certain Leonardo DaVinci did try to let his left or right hemisphere relac for he didn't realize what they were.






    I agree but again I want to stress that using anything doesn't make people more creative, they either are already creative or they aren't. Injecting heroin into ones arm to feel the music and get inspiration is totally ridiculous and life threatening.
     
  15. Faerynght Registered Senior Member

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    Thanks!

    I understand this point but what is your stance on things like herion, narcoticss, etc. do you feel these agents should also be legally attainable?
     
  16. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    Absolutely. I'm a libertarian and a Libertarian. Consenting adults must be free to do whatever they want so long as it causes no direct harm to others. In my grandparents' day cocaine and Heroin (a trademark of the Bayer Corp., "It makes you feel like a hero") were sold by pharmacists rather than people with guns and no education. Doctors and lawyers used them and their performance was no more impacted than it is by the caffeine addiction that so many doctors and lawyers suffer today. In fact by many measures alcohol is the most evil of all popular recreational drugs, with tobacco running a close second.

    Virtually all of the evils supposedly perpetrated by illicit drug use are actually second-order effects of drug prohibition. Black market commodities are expensive, so addicts turn to crime to finance their habits. Black market production is not well supervised, so impurities and incorrect dosage cause deaths. Black market participants cannot take their disputes to the court system, so they shoot each other. Black market culture has a cachet of taboo which appeals to the citizens of a nation that was founded on the principle of disrespect for authority, and especially to their children whose favorite pastime is outrage.
     
  17. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    So why aren't you living in Amsterdam? It allows everything you want there, leave now and avoid the rush!
     
  18. Faerynght Registered Senior Member

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    Do you think that agents like opiates/narcotics/etc. should be regulated in anyway i.e. by prescription or that they should be readily available for consumption by all adult citizens? Who should determine the amount you can purchase, give instructions and warnings regarding risk/benefits and should liability be assumed by the prescriber (if there is one), the manufacturer, or the consumer? Should these agents be taxed and where should they be sold? Heroin was regulated in 1914 in the US and banned for sale and production in 1924.
     
  19. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

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    To my knowledge this is a complete Fallacy, from what I have commonly understood about Neurology the neuron's don't 'Regrow', when you reach a certain age they aren't reproduced with the exception of neuron clusters that are linked to the Nerve system.

    Neuron's are adaptive, they do regenerate Axon pathways but that's because the brain is an adaptive system it's constantly closing down old unused pathways and strengthening ones that are constantly used. (This is why if you repeat something enough times you remember it as opposed to something you see once in your life, although if it's something important you attempt to remember it by of course repeating that instance in your imagination. ergo every time you repeat it, you strengthen those pathways that are assigned to it.)

    What you could suggest in the case of University students is not so much that the Cannabis is making them clever, however their logical perception is altered through their state of mind. What is increased however is the amount of Dopamine within the pathways chemical communications, this increase in activity can strengthen pathways and even cause communication across pathways that aren't used so regularly (This is apparent in regards to Parkinson's, Alzheimer's and even Multiple Sclerosis in regards to motor functions).

    I'm not saying that anyone with a disorder or disease mentioned above should go out and smoke cannabis now. After all they should seek medical counsel and ask about alternatives since not all of the chemicals from Cannabis are necessary.

    As for the strengthening of pathways, Increasing them through strengthening doesn't necessarily make a smarter person, in fact it's probably the main reason for the elevation in paranoia in Cannabis and other drugs (Since an increase in long term memories can occur, only "serious" noteworthy events are remembered, for the most part this means either things that are seriously important to you like a fond memory or all the things that go wrong in your life that potentially echo with an increasing depressive context).

    As for Cannabis itself, Like I said in another post it's overall psychoactive THC compound is very similar to a number of Gas compositions, so much so that snorting Butane is just a higher does of the chemicals found in THC. Usually such use of Gas (or solvents) actually Kills brain cells if done excessively, obviously smoking Cannabis won't be to the same extent as sticking a can of lighter gas up your nose however it is still poisoning you the same way just in a lesser concentration.

    As mentioned in another thread Smoking Cannabis Pure or with Tobacco will also add other chemical compositions to the list of poison. One of those being Cyanide (Again its an extremely low concentration but a poison none the less).

    I have seen first hand what excessive 'Street use' of Cannabis can do and the overall effects are not good in the long run.
     
  20. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

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    I feel pretty much the same in terms of intelligence. I only feel sort of wierd, like out of my body sometimes, and I'm alot more carefree,

    So, DOES weed make you smarter?
     
  21. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

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    Simply, If you are a university student, studying hard for a diploma/degree. Then you have already worked hard to get the neurological pathways in regards to your subject matter. If you smoke weed then you're going to increase your Dopamine (a neural transmitter) which is going to increase the use of those already formed pathways, this could aid in regards to your long term memory *IF* you follow a repetitive pattern of study.

    If however you just 'Theorise' and space out on it, then it's not going to aid you any. In fact that is the probable factor in regards to short term memory loss... doing nothing and 'spacing'.
     
  22. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    You don't seem to understand the word "libertarian." Let me quote Thomas Jefferson, "That government governs best which governs least." The only person who has the right to make personal choices for you is you, so long as your choices cause no direct harm to others. It cannot be the responsibility of a government to protect a citizen from himself. For every citizen that a government might rescue from dissolution, with an out-of-date, bureaucratically ordained, politically compromised, one-size-fits-all law enforcing the loudest community's view of morality, the lives of ten thousand other citizens will be diminished by the loss of freedom, the inability to pursue happiness according to their own wishes, the corruption and violence that are the ineveitable byproduct of a black market, and the erosion of respect for law. The benefit is not worth the cost.

    "Regulating" a commodity or service seems like a way to give Big Nanny just a small ability to protect us from ourselves. But the effect of letting that camel's nose into the tent is still based on the assumption that a government--The Employer Of Last Resort, with thirteen layers of bureaucrats who sit around all day "administering" each other--has the wisdom, flexibility and reaction time needed to micromanage the needs and wants of individual citizens. Regulations usually end up accomplishing only one or both of two things: raising revenue for the government, or restricting the supply of a product or service so the people who produce it and contribute to elections can make higher profits.

    I repeat what I learned very early in life from my elders: During their youth, cocaine and heroin were virtually unregulated. Coca-cola is so named because one of its active ingredients was extract of coca leaf. There was no "drug problem" as we have today. People got high but it didn't keep them from holding down responsible jobs and providing for their families. Some people used what we call recreational drugs as self-medication and in their viewpoint it was helping them perform, exactly the way caffeine--an addictive drug with its own set of bad side effects--is treated today. Some people overindulged and ruined their lives. But since their drugs were legal and modestly priced, nobody turned to crime to support his habit, got gunned down by rival drug dealers, acquired a prison record that would forever prevent him from getting a decent job, or was afraid to seek help with his problem.

    The total evil done by unregulated drugs is far less than the total evil done by illegal drugs added to the total evil done as second-order effects of the illegality. As I have noted in other posts, according to the Washington Post and other sources, a black American is twice as likely to be arrested for drug use as a white American and, once arrested, is twice as likely to be imprisoned for it. This despite the fact that the rate of drug use is approximatetly the same in the black and white communities. The drug laws give local officials one more tool that can be used discriminatorily and apparently they use it thus with gusto. To the point that there are more black men in prison than in college, and there is a visible shortage of black men without prison records in inner city communities to serve as male role models for children.
     
  23. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    That is not a true statement, I'd like to see you prove that one.
     
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