"We" stole the Indian's land.... Oh really ?

Discussion in 'History' started by Cazzo, Oct 4, 2008.

  1. Gustav Banned Banned

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    nonsense
    a reasonable middle ground is not unattainable
    there are mechanisms in place...petition for redress of grievance etc
    some successes, some failures, not kneejerk naysaying

    Having said yes to Japanese Canadians, the government cannot make a credible case for saying no to another group. A mixture of noble sentiments and crass multicultural politics produced the previous decision, and that same mixture beckons the government again. For better or worse, the country will be forced quite literally to pay for its history for many years to come. (link)


    so?
    an apology or a billion bucks
    pay the fuck up
     
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  3. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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  5. Gustav Banned Banned

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    again
    you assume outrageous demands for redress and compensation
    perhaps a safe assumption but still indeed one
     
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  7. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    Well, SAM, a good start would be to use the billions that we send to India every year ...that would help a lot, don'tcha think?

    Baron Max
     
  8. Pandaemoni Valued Senior Member

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    Redressing grievances from the 1940's is far easier to do because many of the victims are still alive and for those who are not their lineal descendants are still likely to be relatively manageable in number. Sure you can come up with a bullshit number that is not based on anything, but that number is as likely to be "zero" out of a sense of forgiveness as "a billion bucks" out of sense of retribution. And who gets that billion bucks anyway?

    If you calculate damages the way the law does (i.e. with an eye towards properly compensating people for their injuries, not punishing the wrongdoer because you dislike them) and look at addressing grievances from the 1820's, not one single victim will be alive. Assuming an average of let's say 5 living descendants per 30-year generation (which is on the low side for the 19th and early 20th century, and a bit high for the generation born after 1940), *each victim* could easily have more than 15000 descendants. If the grievance was 1850, under those assumptions you'd expect 3125 descendants. In 1880, he should have about 625 living descendants, and so on. Then, you have to determine how to allocate it amongst his thousands of descendants...pro rata? What if one descendant can show that by will all the victims property was left to his ancestor and none of the other siblings? What about the descendants that are not full-blooded. Does Jane Smith get a full share because she's 1/16th blooded? A 1/16th share? No share?

    In general, first you have to figure out who the victim was. Then you can to figure out what his injuries were. Did he get sick in or on the trip to the new lands the U.S. sent him to? Might he not have gotten sick had he stayed home untroubled by the U.S.? What other injuries were there? What was the value of the lost property that there is no documentation for? How do we even begin to guess? Then you have to determine how much his injury was worth. Then, there's the matter you have to determine how to allocate it amongst his thousands of descendants, many of whom are not full-blooded. Does Jane Smith get a full share because she's 1/16th blooded? A 1/16th share? No share?

    Does the U.S. get due process for this law suit? Evidence is going to be hard to come by, so who has the burden of proof? If the issue is the lack of evidence. what about the doctrine of laches? Does that apply? Why not?

    All of the problems are vastly simpler when the mystery is only 60 years old, and not 160. Then you still have to guesstimate but if the death and displacement of your grandfather was worth $1 million in damages (in 2008 dollars), you and your fellow grandchildren get a $40,000 each (assuming 5 per generation). The descendants of the native American killed in 1820 get an insulting $64 each, if you can find all 15,625 of them. The government might be better off using the money to build a museum of native cultures, rather than paying cash awards.

    Again, you can skip this process by use guidelines to come up with proxy numbers unrelated to the facts, but the results will have nothing to do with the actual economic impact of the harm done. It's not even "damages" at that point, it's just a wealth transfer.

    Better to acknowledge the truth, you did not know your ancestors from 1820, and unless you are a freak they do not mean shit to you. Giving me money for what my distant ancestor—to whom I have no connection—did makes no more sense than slapping me in jail for what my ancestor did.
     
  9. Simon Anders Valued Senior Member

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    I can't really see reparations.
    I think a national reappraisal of the relationship and a demythologizing of Manifest Destiny would be a good thing.
    But I am not holding my breath.
     
  10. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    But you might get a country out of it.

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  11. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    And the annihilation of the "non-native" American way of life as well.

    All industrial civilizations meet that description.

    And "all Americans" would include those whose ancestors were members of the Red nations in North America. That includes, as a minority subset, those who are members of formal tribes now.

    For that matter, the Reds in the years from 1500 to about 1750 in the east, and to about 1800 in the west, enjoyed a way of life that would not have existed without the annihilation of the earlier ways of life - and quite possibly the people who followed it - on the land. The entire horse culture of the Great Plains, for example, was built on the ruins of whatever was there before about 1560.

    Likewise the town civilizations of the Ohio and Mississippi and Arkansas River valleys.

    The Scotch Irish takeover was just the third or fourth in the past few hundred years, and was itself replaced. The current civilization in Missouri or Wyoming, say, has by now been there about as long as the culture it replaced had existed. The white tribes in some of the midwestern woodland areas replaced red tribes who had replaced other red tribes (by force, with bloodshed) only a few decades - or even years- previous.
     
  12. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    All of whom have benefited from the forcible removal of native Americans. Agreed?
     
  13. Gustav Banned Banned

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    ahh
    the high drama
    what fun

    emoting in sci?

    /spits

    it appears that complex and nuanced solutions for problems is not your forte.
    nor does it seem the capacity for a simple expression of regret is present.
    fine.
    go away and let those willing, deal with the issues.

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    political-apologies

    aboriginal reparations
     
  14. Gustav Banned Banned

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    out of the mouth of babes?
    surely that is part of what the dispossession of the indigenous peoples of this world entailed?

    /cackle

    [underneath the thin veneer of civilization beats the heart of a bloodthirsty and murderous savage!

    /emoting

    nuke the sub-humans. nuke em all! impose the goddamn final solution!

    /more high drama
     
  15. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    I agree, SAM. And if you or anyone else can bring those same people back to life, then I think we should give them a few bucks.

    Baron Max
     
  16. Gustav Banned Banned

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    this is absolutely breathtaking in the level of disingenuity expressed.
    rather than an illustration of a slide down a slippery slope, it is instead akin to a tumble off a cliff into the abyss below

    /snickers


    not good enough
    i want an apology
    now!

    /*&*&#$#%$@
     
  17. Gustav Banned Banned

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    12,575

    you!

    /smile
     
  18. Gustav Banned Banned

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    A Proclamation

    I, Gustav AKA The Horse That Gallops Across the Prarie, the Most Distinguished and Pre-eminent Member of the Chumash Casino Caucus, Sciforums Chapter, Demand an Apology from the Genocidal Caucasoid Members of this Board on Behalf of the Indigineous Peoples of the World


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  19. Gustav Banned Banned

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    lets start with the aryan caucasoid known as sam!

    APOLOGIZE, BITCH! LEAVE INDIA! GALLOP BACK TO YOUR GODDAMN STEPPES AND YURT
    THE MIGHTY AND NOBLE DRAVIDA RACE DEMANDS IT!
     
  20. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Down, boy!

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    Tameez se baat karo!:bugeye:

    / nose in the air.
     
  21. Pandaemoni Valued Senior Member

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    It was more an expression of the the fact that apologies are free, and was made facetiously in any event (hence the "Who cares?").
     
  22. Pandaemoni Valued Senior Member

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    The harm caused to indigenous peoples certainly involved a wealth transfer from someone in some magnitude to someone else. That said the transferors are long dead. the amount unknown, the transferrees are long dead, and there is no evidence that a randomly selected white guy will have been a benerficiary of that transfer, even indirectly.

    Paying "damages" makes sense. Taking money from someone who may or may not owe it to make a payment to another to whom it may or may not be owed, is a waste. The person being forced to make the reparations payment should tell his descendents to wait 100 years then sue your descendents for reparations, for the money you took from him.

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  23. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Anyone who has benefited from living on land that belonged to the native Americans is a beneficiary.
     

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