Warhammer 40k Vs StarTrek

Discussion in 'SciFi & Fantasy' started by Fettman, Jun 4, 2007.

?

Who would win?

  1. Warhammer40k

    26 vote(s)
    59.1%
  2. StarTrek

    18 vote(s)
    40.9%
  1. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,706
    Ivan, you can't win if you don't have someone to beat. We never went into your idiotic argument.

    So basically you started a race except that nobody would join you. You are not a racer because nobody joined it, you are just some idiot taking a walk.

    I can't lose, because I never even entered into this idiotic debate with you.

    Ivan, your argument has been ignored. It was so hopelessly pathetic and so self centered that nobody has even bothered to address it.

    I may not be able to speak for everyone. But I'm not here to beat you in a fictional argument, I'm here to make fun of a self centered brat. And I am having fun.

    How does that make you feel? Being totally ignored. Being a loser.
     
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  3. IvanTih Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    63
    I don't feel anything because after all this is just a Internet debate.I act totally different in the real life,totally different from my behavior on the Internet(in short I'm not self centered or a brat) and you can never crush my spirit man,good luck trying that.
     
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  5. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,706
    I'm not looking to crush your spirit. I'm having fun here, its like shooting angsty fish in a barrel. I couldn't care less of your spirit.

    And I seriously doubt that how you act here is actually all that different then you do in real life. Actually, how you act on the internet, behind the mask of anonymity is a better indication of just who exactly you are then how you act in real life.
     
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  7. Kittamaru Never cruel nor cowardly... Staff Member

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    13,880
    @ Caves of ice - that's swell... and the USS Defiant, a single ship that is classified as an ESCORT, is capable of removing all life from a planet in mere minutes... the Constitution Class, a starship so out-dated it's nothing but a museum piece, is capable of single-handedly destroying EVERY populated area on the planet, including underground bunkers, in under 24 hours. SOLO.

    Both of these are examples taken DIRECTLY from Star Trek episodes...

    In other words, it would take a flotilla of WH40K ships to excise one continent, albeit very deeply, where as a single ship in Trek can de-populate a planet in minutes... if that is an example of your highest firepower, then I think you are sadly outmatched...
     
  8. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,706
    Kitt, he's a fan boy. Hell, in my opinion WH40k would win. But even then I wouldn't want to enter a debate with that kind of prick on my side.

    Don't waste your breath.
     
  9. Kittamaru Never cruel nor cowardly... Staff Member

    Messages:
    13,880
    *shrugs* WH40K would give Trek one hell of a run for their money... but WH40K has one (of many) serious downsides, and that is that they rely on ships that... well, lets be honest. The Enterprise couldn't miss a WH40K battlebarge if it TRIED... it's just too fuckin big!
     
  10. siphra Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    344
    No, it took mere minutes for the fleet at Istavaan III to depopulate the planet, and then burn the atmosphere. And that was overkill.
     
  11. Kittamaru Never cruel nor cowardly... Staff Member

    Messages:
    13,880
    And yet in Star Trek: The Original Series, the USS Enterprise (not even the A mind you) could "accidentally" burn the atmosphere off a planet using their phasers to try and break through a theater shield on the planet...

    And trust me, turning the atmosphere of a planet into burning, energetic plasma would pretty quickly depopulate it

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  12. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,099
    What? None of the contextual situations in those regards suggested anything regarding a limitation due to fear of planetary destruction. I mean sure, maybe with the laser silos you might suggest that, but then it questions why one would even have laser silos--I mean, if the weapon is too weak because you have to limits its firepower ability to the point that it's barely even a fraction of a fraction of the sort of firepower you're claiming...what's the point? That it might annoy someone looking at the window?

    Oh wait, they could too far away from the atmosphere, thus making the laser invisible to the naked eye.


    Hmm, not entirely. I'd have to check again, but if there was actual damage to the rok after the initial hit, it would suggest that the shields were down.

    Because Eye of Terror said they did--in fact, it was described as being on every space faring ship. The fact that some stuck up Eldar is too ignorant to realize this fact isn't my problem.

    ...How is it an oversight?

    Hardly. More like commonly ignored while the other side masturbated the the tune of their own song.

    No idea. Also, that 'billions' of gigawatts is spread over a large area. Not much of it would be going into the ship itself.

    ...Why?


    ...Okay? How large was the asteroid? What was its composition? How quickly did the laser punch through it? These are some things you need to answer before showing this off as if it's anything special.

    I'm not entirely sure where you're going with this. Ie, the Rok was hit with a Nova Cannon, which is typically some form of implosion device. It would suggest that the rok was broke due to some sort of gravitational strain or even going an alternate shell, blown apart.

    I fail to understand how a sniper rifle has anything to do with it.

    Federation levels of stupid? That's a rather odd statement given that Starfleet has the technology to create large theater shields as well as planetary shields as per TOS, TNG, DS9, and VOY. Tell me, does the Emperor of Man have the ability to provide their worlds with total planetary shield coverage?

    And again, I'll have to look at the quote and see if there was any damage previously, suggesting that the rok's shields had been breached.

    Like an outlier given the absurdity of that claim. It's almost as stupid as when Paris said:

    And that was for the Delta Flyer. Hell, if one wanted to start masturbating all over the debate floor, one could point to how a guy from the future was convinced that Voyager's warpcore breach destroyed the entire Sol system:

    But I'm sure we can be more than reasonable, can't we?

    You need to provide context to what you're trying to tell me. I don't understand what you're trying to do here.

    Yes, all spread out over a vast area of a long period of time.

    Such as what? Caves of Ice? I had a talk with Conner--the guy who originally did the calcs. After pointing out one critical grammatical flaw...well, I haven't heard from him and it's been months.

    Perhaps you might wish to rethink your internet persona.

    Yes, let's.

    I see.

    What difference does this make at all? It's not like this means the bombardment has to be super duper fast now.

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    Okay, stop trying to pretend that the entire bombardment of the planet suddenly means that they can't make targets priorities. I'm sure that no more than a broadside or two would solve the problem of one of these cities on the surface. The devastation from such a strike--even KT level, would be absolutely catastrophic to any grounded force.

    Funny you should mention that. In TNG, it took the Enterprise D 19 seconds to drill down into the lower mantle of a Class M world so they could begin an operation that would reliquefy the planet's core.

    But yeah, keep going on about the impressive feat of how the giant cock of the Emperor burned the surface of a planet.

    Now, I encourage no one to start yelping like dogs over this, since I missed it on the first dozen looks at it, but the fact is that people here treated 'barrage' as 'volley'. A barrage is a military operation. Its term is no more exact than 'battle' or 'war' in its use. It depends entirely upon the context of the situation.

    This makes all calculations absurdly impossible because now we don't have any context for this operation. One might try to compare it to say, modern navy 'barrages' which don't last too long in most cases, but the context in terms of operations (ie, that if typically precise targeting for modern forces while this is genocide on a planetary scale) are so different that they cannot be compared.

    More interesting still, this quote suggests 'barrages', which suggests one of two things a) the ships will each bombard a different area, essentially each one performing their own barrage operation or b) the fleet will need to rest between barrages, possibly due to overheating of their weapons.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2011
  13. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,099
    The Imperium's only 'advantage' is their larger size would make it next to impossible for the Federation as it currently is to strike back effectively.

    To be fair, that could have been due to the rather toxic atmosphere, which might have resulted in a chain reaction. We already know that phasers going into a water medium will cause massive shockwaves via just passing through and the atmosphere seemed to be pretty smoggy and thick. Many later episodes don't really suggest that sort of firepower. Only generous interpretations of Broken Link and The Die is Cast would support that.
     
  14. Kittamaru Never cruel nor cowardly... Staff Member

    Messages:
    13,880
    The atmosphere couldn't have been too toxic - after all, Kirk and Co on the ground were able to breathe just fine without any kind of environmental protection

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  15. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

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    1,099
    No they weren't. They were within the domed facility the whole time, remember? It's the episode 'Whom Gods Destroy'. They had the idea of trying to break through a weak point in the shield on the other side of the planet, where it'd be safer, but the problem was that the away team would have to travel through the dangerous and toxic atmosphere (they had suits--but still, very dangerous).
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2011
  16. Kittamaru Never cruel nor cowardly... Staff Member

    Messages:
    13,880
    Ah, so it was - I do apologize, it's been a while since I've seen TOS episodes (bloody TV sucks nowadays... only BBC seems to run anything halfway decent anymore

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  17. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

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    1,099
    It's cool. It's an easy mistake to be made.
     
  18. Kel "Not all who wander are lost." Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    43
    It is really quite simple to answer this debate. In space based combat, i.e. fleet actions, Star Trek would most certainly have the upper hand. However in ground operations The Space Marines, Eldar, Tau, Tyranids, Necrons, Chaos Marines, Dark Eldar, and Orks would have a huge advantage over Star Trek forces.
     
  19. Jerek Adams Registered Member

    Messages:
    2
    Alright. Sovereign class starship phaser output = 5.75MW. 5.75MW x 15 banks. Total output 86.25MW. Or 17.39 times less than a modern day nuclear power plant! Don't you hate official numbers from the intellectual property owners who have the FINAL say on their universe!

    Firepower from a retribution class can fill 96000 cubic miles of space with terraton level weaponry. Hmmmm. There's no comparison.

    The feds have 6000ish ships? Which can repel even borg incursions. Vs. millions of IOM vessels all firing in this power range? Necron vessels have inertialess drives that let them pop in anywhere, in the galaxy, instantaneously. And then repel said levels of firepower times many magnitudes of this firepower for days.

    Where is the advantage in space again? On ship could walk through the feds and their competitors alone. A nova cannon hits in the mid peta-tonne range, or 500 and so yotta-watts just for the kinetic energy involved in the projectile.

    No in space, they get ROLFSTOMPED.
     
  20. Kittamaru Never cruel nor cowardly... Staff Member

    Messages:
    13,880
    *facehoof*

    Jerek, first and foremost - welcome!

    Second - the Sovereign uses the new type XII Phaser Arrays with upgraded emitters, capable of outputting 8.0 MW each. Typically, two emitters at a time fire, though many more can charge and fire a single beam. The main dorsal phaser array, for example, has several hundred emitter segments.

    Also, please do not confuse the raw energy output for their total effective destructive power - due to the exotic nature of the Rapid Nadion Effect, which quite literally breaks the sub-atomic bonds of the target, they are far more destructive than they first appear. This is an excellent case of "efficiency" over "raw power".

    Also... how do you fill several thousand cubic miles of space with weaponry? That analogy doesn't really make much sense

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    Also, you are forgetting to take into account size and speed. WH40K ships tend to be absolutely massive and... well, somewhat sluggish (at least in the books I own/read). Yes, much faster than modern-day space faring vehicles... but we're talking ships that take time to accelerate/slow/turn about. On the flip side, in Star Trek, the ships are relatively small by comparison, and are able to come about in a full 180 and accelerate to maximum speed in roughly a second or two. I would be curious to see if any of the heavy guns from WH40K could even track, much less hit, what would amount to a small fighter craft to them. It would be akin to killing a mosquito with an A2A missile.
     

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