When and where did they retcon it? That little discrepancy was actually a point I was going to use to indicate instability in subspace, and point out that it was similar in that respect to the void.
It was hinted at in a few episodes, where they mention the distorting effects of the Warp Field on realspace and subspace (resulting in micro-fissures in subspace that threatened to render warp nonviable, and thus resulting in the Warp 5 speed limit). This was cured in (I think) season 3 or 4 with the advent of variable warp-field geometry, a product of (I believe) the Intrepid project.
They don't care if Xenos believe in the GoM; they'd still mass kill them. And yes, it is cultural cowardice. That doesn't make them cowards in all things though. They have plenty of weapons that are designed for mass destruction. The Borg Queen is able to mentally focus the minds of trillions upon trillions of drones--what effect do you honestly think that a single Farseer would have on them? Al The Borg Collective would be scary with warp-based technology. They'd probably be able to create warp-bombs designed to devistate entire solar systems. They are stated to have tens of thousands of warships in two sources. One source states that they have millions of transports, while the more modern one says tens of thousands. The NCC registration for Starfleet is 70,000+. Even with just half of that being viable warships, that's still more than enough to handle a large scale invasion. And Trek ships are also stated to be capable of laying waste to planets time and time again--one major plot point from DS9 was the attempt of genocide of the Founder Homeworld. While no one will argue that Imperium ships are much, much larger, keep in mind they seem to use fusion energy. Which means they'd have to theoretically be about 20x larger than a UFP starship in order to generating the same amount of energy. The problem with the UFP invading 40k is the lack of FTL. With the Borg however, that argument doesn't work so well. Begging the Question. According to several sources, IoM capital ship weapons have been suggested to be in gigawatt and terrawatt ranges, with bombs from fighters in the kilotons. It's called a transporter. Granted, but so is reigniting a dead star. Doubtful, though a direct hit would probably be bad for ST ships. Of course, this comes with a great deal of problems. 1) How fast is the NC? People have argued that it's 80-90% the speed of light, yet an actual direct statement is much, much lower. 2) The NC has a tendency to not be self-guided nor is it protected by a shield, so blasting it apart would be rather easy. 3) The NC is on the prow of a ship. According to Rogue Traders, ships can only reach up to one percent the speed of light (.01c). According to Trek manuels, ST ships regularly travel at .25c and according to Voyager, Intrepid class ships can reach up to .8c when they want to. So in all likelyhood, even if the NC is a dire threat to ST ships, it's very unlikely they'll be able to bring those weapons to bear. Their ships tend to be around a kilometer for their smaller ships and probably no larger than 8 or so km for their larger ships. Hardly. Though the Imperium is clearly better armed, they tend to use rather laughably outdated tactics, including bull rushing a defended area. Nor do they often make use of orbital supremecy to any intelligent degree, where as in most cases, orbital supremecy confirms a ST's ship power over the area. Voyager was away from Starfleet for over seven years and showed very little problems of refueling. How is the Sovereign a lumbering ship? It can turn pretty damn well. And again, their ships are at least 25x faster. Hell, the GCS in BoBW was moving faster than the speed of light off its impulse engines. And blankly claiming that Imperium ships are outright superior is also bad debating. No, more like kilotons vs. megatons. In Trek's favor. 1) The Miranda class is around a hundred years old and was cannon fodder. 2) The Galor that shot it belong to a class that gets its ass handed to them by a ship like the Defiant. Transporters are the easiest to break down, yes, but they rarely did that in the Dominion War. That was typically act of plot. Those would make wonderful targets for fighters and capital ships to hit from orbit.
Really? Rogue Trader suggests that hitting a man-sized target is rather difficult and unlikely. No they aren't. Idealogically, they're still stuck in the WWII era of naval combat. Little to no weapons located on the belly of the ship, massive large cannons on the port and starboard sections and little to no guns on the ass. And that's just the design philosphy. They require hundreds, if not thousands of slaves for manuel labor to load and reload weapons--something that a more mechanical system would do more efficiently and with less space required. Even their weapons fall behind Trek in sheer firepower (through practicality is another argument). Their ships are almost a hundred times slower and they consider transporters an almost lost art--yet even relatively primitive Trek socieities have them (such as the NX series). No, the GCS uses a far more compact design that comes with more advanced technology. They couldn't even hit the Defiant, much less scratch the paint job. Hogwash. Trek shields and 40k shields from a design perspective are no better or worse off than the other. Heavy firepower leaks through ST shields and heavy fire leaks through 40k shields. This becomes less of a problem when you can just bomb the fuck out of their entire ground force from orbit--or prevent them from ever reaching orbit. This is naturally of course, why solar flares and asteroids are considered dangerous hazards. Or why gigawatt, terrawatt, or kilotons weapons are considered lethal. Based on what? They do the same amount of damage. One might argue that gauss flayers tend to pack large power cells. ...No. It's also a dozen time smaller than the GCS. Evidence? I'm pretty sure that the adamantine prows of 40k ships are only 20 meters thick. Not really, it's simply compensating for with more matter. ST ships have been shown to face considerable heat reistance without actually glowing. Voyager was armed with two of them. That suggests that they're distrubuted well enough. Not that I'd argue that Starfleet would use them. Again, bullshit. Both from the firepower perspective and the fact that the Defiant doesn't have to engage the fighters. Why not? What do flayers do that phasers don't? Hell, if I remember, don't the Necrons use fusion energy? Hahaha...no. Yes they do, via Voyager's End Game. Them using them or not is an entirely different argument. So what? What does that have to do with anything? Let's test them upon their durability, not some obscure claim that they're better because they're warp based. Also: Also, love the part that it's a spray and pray sort of deal. At 1% the speed of light. That's outright laughable. Otherwise, their shields wouldn't overload because the weapons aren't causing the shield generator strain since they never come into contact with them. They can easily depoly megatons of energy. That's because you've based your argument on silly arguments by SD.com. The second DoW novel shows this happening to a serf. He died rather quickly. Also, terminals exploding while unfortunate, doesn't really matter if a great deal of energy is coursing through the ship that it can't handle it. Who said they died? Injured yes, and some did die, but being thrown to the ground doesn't equate to dying. Gigawatts, huh? Which is why they use mass slave labor to aim and load their guns...
Hatred based on fear is not cowardice. A single farseer was able to recover almost an entire fleet of eldar ships that were stricken when they encountered the Necron Pariah Project. If one assumes technological drift, these debates become a matter of time to induction and numbers. You must disallow this possibility for these debates to have any form of rational thought. Um, no, Sir I am a huge fan of trek and no canon source gives them 70,000 active ships in starfleet. CANON : At the time of TOS there were 12 ACTIVE starships. CANON : At the time of TNG 'a percentage' of the active fleet was destroyed at WOLF-359 and that was 40 ships, this caps the total number of ships at 4,000. How come, everytime I tell people the transporter would be used as a weapon, they all flame me! However terminators could just be teleported back into the fray. They often use orbital supremacy to great advantage, cf. eye of terror, et. al. Rogue Trader can say what it will, it is used in Canon game play to descent effect. Scattering off target by only a few meters. So many people think they know a lot about space warfare.... So here it is in simple form, for a 2 body (or 2 fleet) problem at any given distance, the tactics are essentially reduced to a 2D combat problem, i.e. more similar to Ship-of-the-line fighting than modern stand-off fighting. Add in any 3rd body and it becomes more complex (fighting around a planet that can be used to shield both detection of motion, and direction of motion for example.) 40K ships are designed mostly to fight from that long range open field option, where motion in 3D is actually less important than simply getting your guns into range quicker than your opponent does the same. This is conjecture, there are modern systems where automatic loading of the weapon is possible, but not practical NOR more efficient. (A good number of tanks come into mind.) Fandom FTL, sorry but this is mostly wrong. in terms of SHEER firepower 40K has the advantage from the ground up, The Lasgun being the exception. Bolter : Fires a rocket capable of puncturing even the thickest of armors. Lance : High energy batteries easily 10-100 times more powerful than ship mounted phasers. The ships may be slower, but this is a mass limitation as they are designed for siege warfare. All ships HAVE teleport systems, but they are generally only deployed the same way the federation uses transporters : For important or strategically advantageous purposes only, even the federation uses shuttles and troop transports for most of its deployments. Conjecture based on nothing. As you say, Hogwash... Light fire leaks through Trek shielding, only by completely disrupting 40K shields do you start into the armor on the ship. It is routine that a single phaser hit causes armor damage, and overloads systems on the ship itself. The flayers actual power cell is rather small, it has a storage unit on it that stores the matter it shreds from its target.
Hate is a second hand emotion. You can't have it without something else. So an entire fleet of eldar ships carries trillions of minds who would actively resist said Eldar? Er, what? Hahaha, no. First off, the 12 active ships were for the Constitution class starships. Someone is asking Kirk about the Enterprise and Kirk makes an offhand comment of how there's 'only twelve like her in the fleet'. If you bothered to look up your history of naval affairs, you'd realize that this was a reference to the US's 12 supercarriers in service at the time. As for your claim on Wolf 359, there was no stated percentage named in the episode: This is all we're given in terms of fleet sizes. Nor are you likely to find anything regarding fleet sizes in TNG, because the writers delibertly left that up in the air so they had wiggle room. All it really tells us is that they can replace forty ships in a year. Now, as per DS9, towards the end of the war stated this: 1,500 Klingon ships vs 30,000 of Dominion, Cardassian, and Breen warships. Keep in mind this is after just one day of modifications. We also have DS9, where they form a fleet of ~627 from the elements of the Second and Fifth fleets and battle against 1,254 Dominion ships. And that was just Starfleet until the Klingons later arrived. It depends on what it is. And from my understanding, teleporters are rather rare and on terminators, rather close range. Not really, no. So, game mechanics. Sorry, that doesn't cut it. Including you apparently. Your entire response is simply avoiding my point. 40k uses achaic combat tactics. No, it's fact. That changes when your artillery shells are typically large then the several people trying to move it. Excuse me? I have two sources; Rogue Trader and White Dwarf that pinpoint FTL from thousands of c to hundreds of c. No there isn't. Most visuals show that Bolters are really, really not all that destructive compared to a phaser. Practical design is an argument, but even Trek has come back into using the pulse over beam style. Those lances are in the low pettawatt range. :bugeye: They're not just slower. You're trying to compare something that is literally trying to hit something that's moving at roughly 75 million miles a second, when their top speed is 3 million miles a second. No they don't. :bugeye: Seems good enough for your claims... Hardly and even when their shields do begin to leak, it's dealing with far more energy than kilotons or petawatt energy weapons. They routinly fight ships armed with 1 kilogram of antimatter and matter--ie, roughly 45 megatons. Hell, ST ships routinely fly by stars or close to suns. And as I seem to recall, a single solar flare can easily overwhelm and even destroy 40k ships. The Enterprise D survived heavy beatings by a solar flare for hours. No it isn't. So...there's nothing that really makes Gauss guns into anything better than phasers.
This argument would be off topic, not all hate is based on fear. Pretty simple, when having these debates it is counter productive to allow for one universe to get the others technology. Uh, no, the producers said point blank ALL of starfleet had 12 Starships. Later the black book came out which provided for a host (a little over 100) support ships in addition to the 12 starships. Which supports a fleet of around 4000 total, the use of NCC registration is not proof of any larger number, there were 12 constitution class ships contracted and yet the numbers ranged from 1071 to 1701, so we cannot use the registry as proof of larger numbers. Since it is a WARGAME we are comparing, a universe built for the sole purpose of the game... yes it does cut it. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! And the Blackstone during Eye of Terror was quite effective at pinpointing ground objects. Yup, tactics is a hobby of mine. No actually I was agreeing with you and pointing out the difference in combat philosophy. LOL, ok whatever. :bugeye: A yes, and the gigawatt range phasers are in what range again? Um, technically correct, but not quite, ships used in fleet combat do, cf. Battlefleet Gothic ships. Of course... Cite one episode or movie where that hasn't happened? I agree with that, it was my original statement that they were equivalent.
No, but it typically is. One of the Borg's main ability is to assimilate technology. When? Quote? Source? And given the massive retcons, unlikely. The whole NCC thing changed in intent. I highly doubt it's only a hundred given that their NCC numbers are much higher. They didn't range from 1701-1701, though I can only hope that's a mistake on your part: USS Constellation (NCC-1017) USS Intrepid (NCC-1631) USS Potemkin (NCC-1657) USS Excalibur (NCC-1664) USS Exeter (NCC-1672) NCC-1700 USS Enterprise (NCC-1701) USS Enterprise (NCC-1701-A) USS Hood (NCC-1703) NCC-1707 USS Lexington (NCC-1709) USS Defiant (NCC-1764) See this here? First off, note that the lowest number is 1672 and the largest is 1764. Presumably, the Constitution must be lower than 1672. The way NCC numbers work is via a numerical system, save for in Russia, who for some reason randomize their numbers. However, given that ST ships were not based on Russian and Enterprise shows that NCC numbers were first based upon the Shuttles (ie, NX-Enterprise, NX Columbia--the third was to be the NX Discovery) and hell, the fact that they start at number 01 to begin with suggests numerical NCC numbers. We also know of the USS Kelvin NCC-0514. The numbers show to gradually go up as the ships become more modern. Ie, the USS Excelsior was NCC-2000. The USS Enterprise was 1701 and was originally a constitution class. In fact, here be a list: Also, if you want to try the 'producer said this' angle, then the head writer for DS9 outright stated that he believes that Starfleet had around 30,000 ships at any time. Mechanics do not always transfer properly to real life. Especially when fluff sources outright state their STL speed is at .01c. Can I get an example of that? Uh-huh. That's funny, because at no point did you seem to acknowledge that I was right. Phasers are NDF and thusly cheat. Ie, a phaser with a output of 1 MW is capable of disentegrating a person. Well over a hundred times the energy put in. Logically, phasers are thus over a hundred times more powerful than their DET component. I'm talking about Trek. Trek consistently uses transporters. We saw it throughout DS9 and TNG. Whenever they wanted to move a lot of people, they used transporters, not shuttles. All of them? A single phaser hit has never taken down the transporters. Now, when the ship takes a heavy pounding transporters could go offline, but we don't typically know why. No, you balked at someone considering them to be more or less the same damn thing.
That's what they claim, but having only experienced hatred once in my life, I am not convinced. Yes, and a Borg vs. Necron war would just destroy everything if used to full potential. The point is that allowing either side to take the others tech and deploy it unbalances the fighting, using this set of rules, it ends up being a numbers game. And while IoM won't take the tech, others would, chaos in particular, and that would just frak up everything. I typoed with 1017 as 1071, and yes they go higher, but the point remains that there were 12 ships commissioned and the numbers are not a linear 12 ships. I agree the numbers relate to technology platform and other issues, meaning that with a registry of 70,000 numbers they do not have 70,000 ships. 30,000 ships, and only 40 could show up for a major event like wolf-359 and just over 1500 for the war against the dominion? Right, and debating two sci-fi universes is tranfering to real life how exactly? So that would put them at about the same strength. They use them for moving small groups a few at a time, I cannot recall the episode but when discussing evacuations they had to do it by shuttle, as transporters couldn't handle the numbers. Not transporters, I never said takes down transporters, however it constantly causes feedback in the power systems, damage to the hull (armor) and can explode internal panels with a single shot. Your confusing me with feder808 And ftr, yes i have studied military history, strategy, and tactics since I was a teen. Its a bit of a hobby of mine. Edited to add : With respect to ship numbers I am talking combat capable ships. They may very well have 30,000 ships including haulers, fuel transports, colonial support vessels etc. But not combat capable starships.
Now since the federation is 8000 light years across at its longest, but only 200 light years across at its narrowest (canon source DS9 [104]) we could average a sphere out between the two (rough approximation) to 4,100 ly, assuming a perfect sphere if they had 30,000 ships they could have a ship density (uniformly distributed) of 1 ships per 10 cubic light years, given 3 days to arrive at wolf 359 at warp 9, which is approx 1500 c ships from up to 12 light years away would have been able to reach it. Meaning a maximum of 750 ships should have been able to reach it. Now we know the fleet won't be uniformly distributed, but for less than 5% of the ship potential to arrive, something doesn't add up. Less than that would imply very poor control of federation space, (Shit I would be a smuggler in there, the odds of you getting caught would be non-existent)
And the 8000 light year distance doesn't make sense either, odds are the federations borders must be smaller than that, at warp 6 it would take 21 years to cross the federation. This means that transport ships and trade from one end to the other would be rare at best.
Here is one for you. In ST both the moon and Mars are terraformed. In WH the moon is definitely not, and Mars was but is a desolate wasteland now.
I don't recall anything stating that the lunar surface was 'terraformed' yes it is colonized. It is colonized in 40K too, and mars is an industrial wasteland by design.
Hmm, perhaps that was retconned because I cannot find any reference to it. I however distinctly remember an episode of TNG where you can see an earth like moon (i.e. water, clouds) from a planet. Maybe my memory fails me and they were not on earth at the time.
Ok, I see now. I remembered them talking about a lake but its under a pressurized dome. So the moon is terraformed in ST my bad.
I don't remember any source that states that. Problem with that assumption is that assuming 100% of Starfleet--a scientific and exploration program, stays with UFP space 100% of the time. Please rethink your claim again, and modify it. Not really. Voyager showed us that ST ships can mantain 1,000c for long periods of time, possibly faster given that's what their stated speed was. So in reality, it would take about eight years to cross that distance.
As someone who has many times, I am. Hatred has all sorts--one of those is fear for something different then yourself. It's a basic feeling, as it worked to ensure the dominance of our genes. It's the borg stated ability. They constantly assimilate and adapt new technology. They are linear NCC registries. Enterprise made that loud and clear when the first two Starfleet ships were 01 and 02. My list clearly displays that the registries go higher as they ships become more modern. Also, that was only for the Constitution class ships. It and of itself was a reference to the twelve supercarriers the US had at the time. Ie, we're just getting ready to retire the US Supercarrier Enterprise. The first nuclear powered supercarrier. Registries don't work that way. Registries are the recorded number for ships ordered. Ie, you have a registry of say 102 ships, but only actually built 77 of them. That's because those ships were ordered--it doesn't mean built per say. So Starfleet has ordered 70,000+ ships. It's highly unlikely that Starfleet is the type to order tens of thousand of ships they'll never use. You might get a creep that would shave off some of those, but not all of them. Even at with say, 20% of those ships never produced, that only cuts the number down by 14,000. That still leaves 56,000 ships. Hell, even if you want to take away another 20% for ships lost, that's still 32,000 ships. And that is a rather high number, you're probably looking at half of that being lost out of the century they've existed, which is closer to around 39,000 ships. Simply put, you cannot reason away tens of thousands of ships just by claiming the registries aren't linear when they clearly are by the list I provided you. They had maybe one or three days to respond. That's also not taking into account that as a space and exploration group, most of their ships are probably not in UFP space. Say even 40% of their ships were out exploring and performing actions outside of UFP space. That leaves roughly 18,000 ships within Federation space, going with 30,000 ships. We can quantify them. Mechanics are far more difficult to quantify. Not really, no. You're thinking of Ensigns of Command. In that episode, they had to wait for a transport that used shuttles because of the radiation in the atmosphere. Radiation so lethal that only Data could safely go down and how the people on the surface survived is a mystery to the crew. One of Riker's hopes was that LaForge would be able to get the transporters working through the radiation, though it was a long shot. That would have solved the problem. And as per an episode of Voyager, they beamed well over a hundred Klingons from their exploding ship in seconds. This also happens in 40k. Second DoW novel tells about how a serf died when his consol exploded. Ah, I see. Highly unlikely. While military transport ships are likely, most UFP ships do colonial and hauling work, depending upon their classification or that's regulated to civilian ships. You have other ships such as Runabouts which act more like torpedo boats (less, even), but all in all, the UFP has 30,000 ships. And again, I point to the head writer of DS9 as a source for that. Tens of thousands of ships is even supported by the very source; ie, the alliance outnumbered the Dominion forces, which numbered 30,000. Even if you want to split it up three ways for the allies and make them a 1:1 match, that's still 10,000 ships for Starfleet--after over two years of conflict against the Dominion where they took heavy losses. And given the status of how easily the allies recovered once their fleet was fully restored, we're probably looking at something around 1.5:1. Ie, 45,000 to 30,000 ships, since we also have to take into account that the allies would have to penetrate deep into fortified Cardassian space to defeat the Dominion. Hell, given the stated damage to the Klingon Defense Force, we're probably looking at: Klingons: 8,000 UFP: 17,000 Romulans: 20,000 Total: ~45,000 Dominion: 13,000 Cardassian: 7,000 Breen: 10,000 Total: ~30,000 Even with the Klingons running at 100%, they still would have been heavily outnumbered over three to one--and it'd take them over five days to service 8,000 ships (5.33 to be exact).
DS9 ep 104, the Cardassian and Klingon borders are on opposite sides of the Federation, and is quoted as being 200 light years. The 8000 comes from one of the TNG movies, BUT it is not a quote saying that the federation is actually 8000 ly across. But rather that the federation has member planets 8000 ly from each other. (You can read the quote either way actually, and it makes more sense to me to just assume contiguous space. Though based on evidence from DS9 and TNG, it is likely that the discontinuous space idea is more correct.) Ah I see, and yet somehow magically this whole fleet gets to defend Federation space during an invasion by 40k? You need to pick how your going to field your fleet, you either get all of them, and then the assumption that they are all in federation space gets used to show a lack of fleet strength when you throw numbers like 30,000 and 70,000 out , OR you admit that the upper limit of ships available to fight is probably somewhere around 4,000. Federation Starfleet ships can, trade ships mostly keep up cruising speed of warp 6, which is 392 c. There are multiple TNG and DS9 references that support this claim. And even Starfleet keeps warp speed down for the most part. That's not saying that they can't hit warp 8 or even higher.
This one: Actually, according to the TM, Earth is about 50 LY away from Bajor, which is 5.25 ly away from Cardassia. They just said they were halfway home when it happened. So the actual distance of UFP space at most is going to be 147.4 light years. No, it says that the UFP is formed of planets spread over 8,000 light years. And somehow the Imperium is going to get its 'tens of thousands of ships' all in one area to invade the UFP, despite being spread throughout their own galaxy? Works both ways I'm afraid. I never said that the entire fleet would be in the UFP during the invasion. But at the same time, you don't get to have the entirety of the Imperium fleet to work with either. It takes them decades to cross the galaxy, so depending on where the joining point is for these two universes depends upon just how quickly they can each bring the majority of their fleet to bear. Oh and of course, you must also keep in mind that Starfleet was able to gather ~30,000 ships for its war against the Dominion when it was in full swing. The UFP discovered the Dominion at the end of season 2. A cold war began to rapidly esculate by the end of season 3 and throughout seasons 4 and 5, with the war beginning at the end of season 5. 1 season = 1 year more or less. So at most, Starfleet had 3 years to gather its fleet towards its boarder in the Alpha Quadrant. More likely, it was roughly two years of build up as the problem quickly grew larger. This would suggest that the bulk of UFP ships are 2-3 years out. Again, depending upon the distance, Imperium ships can take decades to reach a part of the galaxy. Given that the Imperium's fleet is stated to be 'tens of thousands', that sort of puts a whole dent in how much they can wield total--and it's very unlikely that they can field so many ships so quickly. And then of course, you should take into account the Klingons as allies. Source? Or is this just you taking from the Voyager TM? Because that same source's 'map' points to the UFP being over seventeen thousand light years wide. Of course it's also the same source that said Starfleet took up roughly 5% of the galaxy, which is more in line with the movies (rougly 10,000 ly we would be talking about, assuming expansion in all directions--that's much closer and would suggest 4,000 in height and length as opposed to 8,000 in height and 200 in length). Nor do I understand how this FTL limitation on transports would affect the size of the Federation, since you probably don't need to transport that much material across the Federation. Apparently they fixed that problem (given that it was retarded to begin with) and we see them freely violate it without a second thought in every episode since then.
The warp speed limit was due to subspace damage caused by high-warp factors - the Voyager project with it's variable geometry nacelles, along with help from Geordie LaForge in the creation of variable geometry subspace fields, removed the need for this speed limit by eliminating the damage to subspace by high-warp velocities, allowing ships like the Prometheus and Sovereign classes to sustain warp speeds in excess of 9.9 almost indefinitely.
