Yep, and pretty soon you won't have any bad guys .....everyone will be nice people, huh? Tell me, c2oh, what does any society need with people who willfully disobey the society's rules and laws? What does anyone need with them? Baron Max
Nature says that if you are standing on Earth and you drop a rock it will fall to the ground a certain way. This is definitely going to happen. Nature says that if you take an apple seed and give it nutrients, water, and sunlight it will grow into an apple tree. This is definitely going to happen. Nature has no law that says if you sell drugs in China you will definitely get shot in the head. That is a law that a group of Chinese human beings came up with, and like any other law written down by a human being, it is not perfect. I would guess that most Americans would think that such a law is barbaric, even if it IS written down. Should she have been prepared to pay the price for what she was doing? Of course. And maybe she was. But it doesn't follow from there that she got what she deserved.
Wrong. You will have an oppressed people who will eventually seek to overthrow the murdering dictators who would murder people in cold blood because they didn't have the foresight to see that their actions were detrimental to their economy. They put money before human rights. A terrible move. What does anyone need with a member of the community who condones murder if a rule is broken? You condone this sort of murder don't you Baron? One can only guess at the underlying motives behind such willingness to condone this form of murder. Would you wash your hands of your son if he was caught in possesion of 2oz of cocaine? Would you applaud GWB as he signed your son's death warrant? c20
Overthrow? Ya' mean with violence and killing and death and murder? And you condone that? How can you condone THAT murder and violence, yet gringe in disgust the legal execution of a drug runner? Baron Max
Baron: There's something called morality, Baron. You would do well to learn what it is. Next, consider whether or not all laws are moral. And if a law is not moral, what then? Do you obey it, or not? To take a similar example, consider a soldier ordered by his commanding officer to shoot an innocent, unarmed civilian. Should the soldier obey the order? After all, it comes down the proper command chain. Is that the only thing that matters to you?
I did not condone it or applaud it. I simply stated what is likely (bound) to happen and am trying to say that if China is using the stability of it's economy as justification for such harsh measures then they lack foresight as economists, given the inevitable consequences for adopting such measures will be revolution and an unwillingness by the west to trade with them because of the political consequences. But you have consistenly failed to rebutt that such tough measures are bad for China's economy. Maybe because you know you are waaaaay out of your depth when it comes to justifying such harsh measures from an economic perspective. Personally, I think you just like to see a Chinese person get a bullet in the head and you can express your delight at the pictures falsly believing there will be no recrimination because it was a 'legal' killing. Very transparent. Sick puppy. c20
Some people think it's all right to kill others just for a "stable economy." There is something really wrong with that kind of thinking, like, it's still murdering people for the sake of money. Do you know why people around where I live use methamphetamines? Ever read the novelization of "Outland", the move with Sean Connery about a federal marshall attempting frontier justice on a moon of Jupiter? The company looked the other way while workers used methamphetamines to help them make their quotas. Unfortunately they would eventually end up committing murder or suicide. It obviously wasn't Ecstacy they were using. People use drugs so that they can work, or even hold two jobs. They also use them to help with the pains after having worked. Murdering people over these issues isn't particularly good for the family either. China is simply murderously violent, unworthy of owning guns or technology.
So is that to say that you think morality is absolute? That morality is the same for all human societies? That western and/or Christian morality is the correct morality for all humans? And that anyone, anywhere, having a different morality is wrong? If you wish to be a part of that society, you should obey it's laws and rules ...until you can change them thru legal means. ....or suffer the consequences of your actions. In any human society, the citizens can't be given the choice of obeying the law or not! Can you imagine the chaos and death? There are legal/acceptable means of changing laws in a society. The entire system of western government and society is based on the LAW. If each citizen is permitted to decide which law to follow and which not to follow, then the entire legal system will crumble into dust, will mean nothing! Moreover, the system of law has built-in procedures for which to change laws which are not "moral" or which the people don't like ...and none of those procedures is to violate whatever law a citizen doesn't like!! Baron Max
It's their economy and they can fuck it up if they want to! Who are you to tell the Chinese how to operate their economy?? Yes, I am. And I also don't accept your ideals of how shootiing a few drug runners is actually going to do any-fuckin'-thing to their national and/or world economy!?? Well, you can think whatever you like, but it's not so nice to actually say it. It becomes a personal issue in lieu of any valid argument. Name-calling is usually a sign of an immature mind with no valid input for the discussion. Baron Max
It's not "murder" when the state executes a criminal for violating a legal law ...regardless of what you say. Do you also call it "illegal imprisonment" when the state puts someone in jail for criminal activity?? Baron Max
I am a citizen of the world. I don't approve of keeping silent whilst people murder fellow citizens in the belief they are doing right and purport that they are doing it for the benefit of other people when there is no evidence to support that. Of course you don't see it. You don't care about the truth. You just like to see a couple of gooks get it in the back of the head. Why should you invest any skin in the argument? You are happy for them to continue deluding themselves and others. What? You have feelings pal? You don't like being singled out? Not nice is it? In lieu of any valid argument? Are you a total moron? My argument is that putting your economy before human rights is bad for business. There are better ways to achieve a win-win situation. But you dont seek a win win situation because you are happy the gooks get it. You dont care about justice or human rights until someone calls 'you' a sick puppy. You are a hypocrite. Face it. c20
Then how can you explain that the Chinese economy seems to be doing quite well in the world of international trade? ...growing rapidly, in fact. Psycho-babble bullshit that has virtually no meaning (except to idealists!). But you seem to be doing everything that you can to keep ME silent. How can you hold that "right" for yourself, yet not allow me the same privilege? No, no! They can call me a "sick puppy" if they want, but it doesn't add to the discussion in any way, shape or form. Baron Max
Then countries of the west are being forced to compromise against their own stance on human rights. We are all being sold into slavery. The macro of it all is a fallacy. It is about individual responsibility. It's about you and I and what we condone and what we do not condone. Lol. Keep you silent? Are you kidding me? I use the term 'sick puppy' because no one can blame a 'sick puppy' when it sh*ts all over the carpet. Just gotta kind of feel sorry for it. c20
Ahh, yes ....compromise! Isn't it wonderful? It basically means that we, the righteous, turn our eyes from things that we don't want to see/know, so that we can benefit in some selfish way. Isn't that what "diplomacy" is? Yes, I agee. And that young Chinese woman was/is responsible for her own decisions and the consequences thereof. And yet YOU and those like you, want to give her the choice, yet not suffer any of the consequence of that choice. Hmmm? More psycho-babble bullshit ....just for talking and arguing. If we don't or can't condone something, then we should DO something about it ....rather than just bitch n' moan to more of those who can't DO anything about it. If you and others are so "non-condoning" of such behavior, then you should write to your congressmen, etc. and demand that western nations form a coalition and invade that damned country and FORCE them to do/see things our way. Otherwise, it's nothing but complaining for the sake of complaining ....which will do nothing to stop that which you don't condone. I wonder if the Chinese condone everything that western nations do? Like our tendency to give so much "freedom" that people in cities all over the world are "free" to assault, rape and murder other citizens?? Or feed them drugs so that they turn into addicts, which become a burden on other, innocent citizens? Psycho-babble bullshit. Baron Max
i dont agree with this law, or most of the laws in any country, i think it should be everyman for himself, with no police, im not bieng a barbarian i just think life would be more real then, let the laws of nature alone judge people, man made laws all have faults and theres no real justice in them, but this law dosent shock or appaul me more than all the other laws, theres americain and english laws that appaul me just the same, they excecuted someone because he did something against there wishes, simple as that, and may countrys execute people, and its all wrong if someone murders my friend or family members, then i will kill them i dont need some government to it for me, and the weak people that cant fight back should die, and make way for a more powerfull bieng, natures way the weak will perish and the strong will survive, its just natures way to filter out the rubbish, peace,
Baron: Forget societies. Every person has their own personal moral code. However, I do believe it is valid to argue that some moral codes are superior to others. For example, some people live by the moral code of "what's good for me is right, what's bad for me is wrong." I don't think that's a particularly good moral code, and I can give you logical arguments against it if you like. Your appeal to moral relativism is really just a distraction, and should rightly be argued in another thread, so at this stage I won't expand on my point. I don't for a moment believe that you actually support moral relativism. It's just a convenient argument you like to use to sidestep confronting moral issues. Right? You assume it is always possible for the average citizen to bring about changes in laws. Is that true in China, do you think? Was it true in Iraq under Saddam Hussein? And if not, what then? In some regimes, the chaos and death is greater when people obey the laws, since the laws are harsh and discriminatory and patently unfair.
James, I think that's exactly the point! We talk too much psycho-babble bullshit instead of doing something! If America, for example, were to adopt similar moral codes on illegal drugs as the Chinese, we'd have a lot less drug-related crime in this country. But, no, we'd rather "distract" ourselves with high-sounding psycho-babble about "rights", etc, than to attack the problem of illegal drugs. Yes, James, you can call it a distraction .....but that's exactly what it is ...the moral bullshit DISTRACTS us from the actual issues at hand ....and thus we talk about it, instead of doing something about it. And in so doing, we have a rampant illegal drug problem in this country that's staggering the people and the economy, not to mention the health industry. Of course it is!! If a gazillion Chinese were to rise up and challenge the piddling few police, authorities in China, who do you think would win? The problem, of course, is that people don't like to be shot at and killed ....and so if they don't want it badly enough, fuck 'em!! It's not YOUR place, or mine, to see that the gazillion Chinese have .........."civil rights" if they don't want 'em badly enough to fight for 'em. Fuck 'em. Over the past 61 years, I've discovered that most people get just what they deserve in bosses and/or governments. If they wanted/deserved something better, they'd work for it/fight for it, and they'd likely get it. Drug running, drug users, drug dealers get little or no sympathy from me. They made a choice ....now they have to live with the consequences ...but you and others don't want them to have to be responsible for their actions. Why? And why is it any business of yours? Baron Max
In the UK there is much stigma attached to being a user of cannabis. You can lose your job, be fined, put in prison and so on. I guess this is similiar in the US (only harsher penalities are to be expected - longer prison sentences, heavier fines and so on). In China you can be publically shot for possesion. I am a cannabis user. I am allergic to prescription pain killers and cannabis is probably the only thing I can take to ease my pain without going purple and bloated. I grow my own so that I do not put cash into a black market economy. I do not deal because I do it for me and do not wish to encourage other people to break the law. Do I agree with the law? Of course not! Can I have my say? Well no not really, not without giving away my position. Things just are not as black and white as you would have them be Baron. And no man can say that his position is so morally absolutely correct, that anyone found transgressing their ideals should be shot! There are two sides to every debate. the trouble is Baron, you are not prepared to look at the other side objectively. peace c20
See? I disagree! The time for the psycho-babble, bullshit debate was BEFORE the law was enacted. Once enacted, it DOES become absolute in that society and there is NOT two sides to the issue. The bitch broke the law, the law proscribed the punishment and it was carried out exactly as it should have been ....a bullet thru the brain! They did it quickly, but probably should have done it sooner!!!!!!! Well, we can keep "looking at" all of these issues objectively until the cows come home and nothing will ever get done. At some time in human society, we must make major decisions and then take action. We can't keep talking about, psycho-babble bullshit, and do nothing. The western world is becoming little more than psycho-babble crap ...going down the drain fast! We care more for the rights of the vicious rapist/murderer than we do about the rights of the victims. And that, my friends, is a sad, sad commentary on the state of western societies. But are you willing to accept the consequences of your illegal activity if caught? And are you willing to stand up and admit to everyone that you were in the wrong, that you broke the law, and that you're ready to accept the legal punishment according to the law? And are you willing to tell others not to whine and cry because of your punishment? That you willingly broke the law, knowing the consequences and ye're willing to go to jail whre you can't get the "pain-killer" that you need? ...and suffer consequences? Baron Max
You think there was a democratic vote on it?!? Comon, you are not that naieve. My voice is as valid as any other. It becomes more valid when it is joined by others and becomes (or ought to become) an absolute when that single voice is a majority. Unfortunately, the majority is ignored if it contradicts economic agendas. Money rules the roost, not human rights or opinions. I think that is the saddest part of western civilisation. I have a choice if caught. I can say 'I was a bad boy' and get a lighter fine or I can say 'F*ck you lot, you crazy power mad psychos. Show me a victim and I will show you a crime!' and get a harsher penalty as a result for speaking my mind. According to you I should bow to the authorities and admit I was wrong. In reality I probably would but this does not mean that it is what I believe is right or that what I have done is 'wrong'. If the government pulled out a gun and said 'It's time to die' I would consider their crime worse than mine for my alledged crime has no victim. There crime is indeed worse than mine, yet you condone it. I cannot understand why you condone such acts of brutality as 'an acceptable punishment'. peace c20
