War! (never been so much fun...)

Discussion in 'World Events' started by Neville, Mar 16, 2003.

  1. Syzygys As a mother, I am telling you Valued Senior Member

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    This was an interesting thread and look back, thanks for reviving it.

    At least you are honest. I remember Powel's UN representation, and I couldn't believe it. That evidence wouldn't have been good enough in a county court stealing case. Specially when he came with the anthrax, which was obviously domestic...That day I lost any respect for him..

    At that time I thought Saddam will melt his army back into the cities and fight from there, street by street. It did happen eventually (what we have now), just 2 years later...
     
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  3. Syzygys As a mother, I am telling you Valued Senior Member

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    Famous last words...

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
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  5. Nickelodeon Banned Banned

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    .......heh.
     
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  7. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    The lookback is very important, if Americans (or any superpower) is going to learn to anticipate the predictable response to shoddily-justified, nationalistic military adventurism lacking a legitimate international mandate. The response to such brazen international and inter-cultural insult has been clearly demonstrated time and again for the last half-century or so- especially in the context of ethnically and regionally-charged situations.

    Americans who openly oppose similar disastrous wars of choice in the future are multiplying, because we are collectively learning. It's coming at a horrendous cost (especially to Iraqis, but also in terms of US casualties and fortunes wasted) but the change is evident. The national response to Bush's sabre-rattling at Iran were very different from 4 years ago.

    Americans are gradually learning more about the complexities of the Mideast from these bitter lessons. Propaganda such as was trotted out in 2003 has a sharply diminishing effect on a public that is becoming educated regarding the most basic issues. Prior to the Iraq disaster, many Americans displayed woeful ignorance about the perspectives of Iraqis and Arabs in general. Today they know that Islam is far from monolithic, and they know that there are political firestorms threatening that are far more easily started than extinguished.

    Because the news media follows audience awareness, news from Iraq is slowly increasing in quality. Because a clear American majority now recognizes the folly of the Iraq war, many more Americans feel socially secure in questioning government belligerence.

    We must remember that there are those who would like to continue the cycle of provocation and over-reach. If the most dangerous of terrorists are not stupid, then they know that Americans will require greater provocation next time, if the American attitudes are tempered with experience into wiser impulses. Smarter we win, and dumber we lose.
     
  8. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    What I recall best, now that I have been reminded, is a line from W's speech announcing the invasion (after months of bombing). It went something like (very like) this: We go to war reluctantly, but our purpose is sure.

    It rang false, then - so badly false it falsified everything else he said. It was obvious, even then, that we went to war eagerly, and no one seemed to know what exactly our purpose was. And this meant disaster - as many said, at the time - even in victory.

    The other thing I recall is how insulting, how triumphantly arrogant, how vituperatively smug, the warmongering pundits were in the first weeks after the US Army rolled over Iraq's defenses.

    If I had the money, I would buy time on Joe Scarborough's show and Chris Mathew's show (I watched them, then) to replay their bitch-mouthed little spiels about "liberals" and "elitists" and doubters of American virtue in all things military, as they gloried in the triumph of the real Americans.

    And they weren't the worst.

    Of all mysteries, this one: the people most wildly and continually wrong about Iraq, the analysts most completely out to lunch about the simplest matters for years on end, the pundits most gullible and least informed then and now, still have pundit jobs, still have national platforms. And the people who were absolutely right, who knew what they were talking about and said it well, whose judgment was vindicated by time and whose analyses have proved spot-on accurate repeatedly now for years, are still found only in despised little corners of the media mansion, still disparaged and disrespected by the powerful and famous and well-connected.

    And those people, who should be dealing with the after-effects of disgrace and humiliation, have lost none of their arrogance, none of their name-calling tendencies and smug assertiveness. There is no shame, among the people who led us into this war.
     
  9. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    iceaura: "Of all mysteries, this one: the people most wildly and continually wrong about Iraq, the analysts most completely out to lunch about the simplest matters for years on end, the pundits most gullible and least informed then and now, still have pundit jobs, still have national platforms. And the people who were absolutely right, who knew what they were talking about and said it well, whose judgment was vindicated by time and whose analyses have proved spot-on accurate repeatedly now for years, are still found only in despised little corners of the media mansion, still disparaged and disrespected by the powerful and famous and well-connected."

    That is a disturbing phenomenon. I think it's just a part of the profit-pendulum that hasn't swung back yet. Althought Americans may be receptive again to Bill Moyers, Phil Donahue, Kieth Olberman (and any more obscure media personalities who were critical of the Iraq war from before its beginning) the media has too much inertia to feed the demand. So far.

    I have never seen evidence for media conspiracies. But I can't help but noticing that major media is a big, fat, lumbering whore that will do anything for money- and is not very clever about recognizing opportunities. The same goes for the Democratic party.

    BTW iceaura it's very good to have your thoughtful posts here.
     

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