Walking With Monsters

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by OilIsMastery, Oct 21, 2008.

  1. OilIsMastery Banned Banned

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    I just watched the most wonderful BBC documentary called Walking With Monsters.

    In it Kenneth Branagh (of Shakespeare fame) claims that human beings evolved from Haikuichthys, a fish that lived 500 million years ago in the Cambrian period.

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    How is that possible? What are the intermediate steps between Haikuichthys and Homo sapiens? How come we don't see intelligent bipedal fish walking around that also evolved from Haikuichthys?

    He also claims human beings evolved from Cephalaspis, another fish, he claims lived in the Silurian, even though it actually lived in the Devonian.

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    Yet Homo sapiens looks nothing at all like Cephalaspis.

    Do we have anything in common with them at all besides eyes and a spine?
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2008
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  3. D H Some other guy Valued Senior Member

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    There you go again with the non sequiturs. And, yes, we have a lot in common with them. We have a lot in common with earthworms, but not as much as we have in common with jawless fish, which in turn is less than we have in common with bony fish, and so on. By the time you get to chimps, the differences are pretty small.
     
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  5. OilIsMastery Banned Banned

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    How come we don't see intelligent bipedal fish and worms walking around that have evolved to compete with us?
     
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  7. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Can't you look these things up in the professional literature?

    Also, you seem to be under a mistaken belief about evolution that goes something along the lines of the classic creationist question "If humans evolved from apes, why are there still apes today?" You assume evolution is a straight-line progression of one species, then another, then another. It is not. It is more like a continually branching tree that sprouts more and more limbs over time.

    If you need me to explain this for you in more detail, I can.
     
  8. OilIsMastery Banned Banned

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    Apparently not since I haven't been able to find a satisfactory answer...

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    Perhaps you can point me in the right direction.

    Good question. Why are sea urchins unchanged since the Ordovician and Silurian? What animals have evolved from echinoids? How come we don't see intelligent bipedal echinoids?

    How is asking where the intermediate steps are assuming a straight line progression?

    So where are the intermediate steps?

    Yes please.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2008
  9. Dr Lou Natic Unnecessary Surgeon Registered Senior Member

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    Wow, you just disproved evolution and proved creationism with one question. You're right, why aren't there man worms and fish men? It totally makes no sense that they don't exist, UNLESS there was a god that wisely chose to not create them.
     
  10. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Always pleased to help.

    Lack of natural selective pressure. If an organism is well adapted to its environment, and that environment remains the same, there is no selection pressure acting to force change in the species.

    Another example is alligators. They have been around for millions of years, largely unchanged. Why? Because they still live in similar conditions to those they have always lived in. They are successful predators that can survive on many types of prey. In short, there has been nothing driving them to evolve.

    I'm not sure. This is why I suggested you might look up the professional literature. Only an expert can tell you what some little-known fossil creature is related to, unless the information is widely publicised.

    I would assume because there have apparently been no selection pressures driving towards bipedalism and intelligence in echinoids. Would an echinoid be advantaged in its environment if it was bipedal? I hope that, as somebody who seems to know a lot about echinoids, you can tell me.

    There are many known examples of "intermediate steps" in the fossil record. For example, try searching for "ambulocetus" or "Australopithecus afarensis".

    Having said that, only a tiny tiny minority of organisms are ever fossilised, and hardly any of those are ever discovered by human beings, and so the fossil record as we know it is fragmentary. There are, however, other types of evidence for common descent. The evidence from DNA is particularly compelling.
     
  11. OilIsMastery Banned Banned

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    No mechanism driving crocodile evolution so what is driving our evolution?

    I can see why someone would say we are related to Lucy. I can't see why someone would say we're related to fish. I just don't get it.

    DNA says we come from fish?
     
  12. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Humans live in complex and diverse environments. What is driving the evolution of one human group may well be different to what is driving the evolution of a different group. The key, though, is environmental change (and by "environment" I include the other people and animals and plants that share the physical environment).

    Suppose we share, say, 60% of our DNA with a particular fish. What do you conclude from that fact? Anything?

    No. It says fish and us share a common ancestor.
     
  13. OilIsMastery Banned Banned

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    So how come no matter how much I lie in the sun my kids will still be born pale?

    I don't suppose anything. I observe first. Then I conclude.

    It does? What ancestor would that be?
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2008
  14. skaught The field its covered in blood Valued Senior Member

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    :bawl:
     
  15. EmptyForceOfChi Banned Banned

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    I demand to see video footage of fish-men and worm-men, also maybe wormfish-men. Like earthworm jim but bigger.

    There are lots of "walking with" docs, it's like a series I have seen them all.

    peace.
     
  16. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    Here was a little cutie. He called himself, "The Pillow Man," because his body was the size of a sleeping pillow. He was a man with a neck about three feet long with no arms and no body. What a cute little guy.

    The Pillow Man had a show that was a lot like a ventriloquist act. The showman stood and interviewed the Pillow Man who talked back, sang songs, rolled on the table, pretended to be a worm-like creature. Later, he was called "The Human Worm," the 8th Wonder of the World. I know a lot of women who would like to have a little guy like this to hold on their lap as they watch television or read a book. The Human Worm and The Pillow Man was alot like having a little kid around to cuddle.

    http://www.americancivilrightsreview.com/Freak Show/freak-page3.html
     
  17. OilIsMastery Banned Banned

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  18. OilIsMastery Banned Banned

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  19. Kadark Banned Banned

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    Did you guys know that my great-great-great grandfather was an orangutan? And that his distant uncle was a mosquito? I hear his great-great grandmother was a sea cucumber, whose sister was seaweed. If I've kept track, my great-great grandson is destined to be a spider. Wow, what a family tree!


    Kadark
     
  20. Roman Banned Banned

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    Are you aware of the niche? It's somewhat of an outdated model, and a lot of ecologists are getting into null models, since they can be tested easier with models.

    Anyway, in niche theory, there are basically only so many places in an environment, so many rolls available, for organisms to occupy. And since organisms are in competition, you'll find better adapted animals for a niche specialize there, or pus others out of their niches. The best examples are the introduction of non-native species of animal or plant. They tend to dominate, pushing other local animals out of their niche. The Tasmanian tiger, for instance, went extinct about the time Man showed up with dogs. The dingo made a much better predator than the Thylacine (someone please correct me if I have this example wrong).

    In much the same way, on the growing African savannah, a number of forest dwelling primates left the trees and began walking upright. They were all in competition, more-or-less, as the occupied multiple niches. Over time, homo sapiens came to outcompete all of them.

    Many anthropologists believe, for instance, that our ancestors drove the Neandertal extinct through direct and indirect conflict.

    As to why there aren't bipedal fish?
    There have been plenty!
    All the dinosaurs were bipedal fish. Kangaroos and Jesus lizards are bipedal fish. You and I are bipedal fish.
     
  21. Roman Banned Banned

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    That's not quite right. There's selection for them to stay the same. Evolving would result in a loss of fitness, so there's selection for them to retain their form & function.
     
  22. OilIsMastery Banned Banned

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    Where are my gills and fins? How come I can't breathe underwater?
     
  23. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    Amphibians do have things like gills, many of them can extract oxygen from air or water. There were many steps in between this fish and man. This fish (or something like it), spawned amphibians, lizards, and eventually, mammals. Mammals are the farthest removed from this ancestor.
     

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