Vegetarian's guide to talking to carnivores

Discussion in 'Science & Society' started by James R, Aug 29, 2011.

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  1. adoucette Caca Occurs Valued Senior Member

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    The article and the title are both misleading.

    Few of the people who call themselves vegetarians only eat plant material and there are also very few true carnivores among us.

    Almost all of us are in fact Omnivores and the difference in our diets are the amount and percent of protein we get from animal sources.

    In the US only about 3% of U.S. adults claim they never eat meat, poultry, and fish or seafood but of them only about 1/3 or ~1% of the U.S. adult population are Vegans as they also never eat dairy, eggs or honey.

    So in fact, in the US, ~99% of us are Omnivores.

    True Vegans aren't that common.

    Arthur
     
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  3. sifreak21 Valued Senior Member

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    well besides the fact that there is almost no way to be a strict veggie. or vegan for that matter and do physical labor, hard physical labor like deadliest catch type stuff
     
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  5. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    I like all types of food. This is entirely natural, since my body is able to process all types of food. My natural instinct will make use of this extended capability in my body, since it contains selective advantage. If I ignore part of my natural ability I am not being natural.

    A real natural vegetarian should not be able to process meat, such that their body would try to avoid the wasted motion. But if they can eat and process meat, they are choosing to become less than natural, based on a fad that places willful limits of the natural capabilities of the body.

    One needs to forget about the philosophical song and dance, since that is all about justifying artifical choices and not natural choices. This repression of natural tends to make vegetarians constantly need reassurance, as they try convert or force others to be unnatural too.

    The entire effect is like saying, even though we have two arms, I am a natural one-arm person who will only use the left arm. The right arm is yucky because it cause global warming. Then you I wonder why right armed people are so pissed all the time. I have two arms, so it is natural for me to use both. I don't wish to become unnatural based on some irrational clanism that limits natural ability. But I respect the right of anyone to become unnatural as long as I don't have to pay taxes to support it.
     
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  7. chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member

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    Yes, eating factory-farmed meat that's been breaded and deep-fried is very natural.

    That's a really dumb analogy.

    The thing Is, through corn subsidies, I actually pay for subsidized meat production, since most of the maize grown in the US goes into food animals.

    So if you live in the states, I'm funding your meat habit. Though I don't eat it.
     
  8. Anti-Flag Pun intended Registered Senior Member

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    I'm sure eating too much of anything can cause obesity, poor argument. Doesn't cheese cause heart disease too? Salmonella can come from eggs. So these are very poor vegetarian arguments - Some vegan only.
    Does this also mean any disease increase attributed to vegetables or common among vegans can be used to argue against eating them? B12 and other mineral deficiency? Alzheimers? Cardiovascular disease? Eating disorders? Depression? (god I'd be depressed too if I had to live on rabbit food).
    Ah yes, jury still out me thinks:
    http://www.dailyhealthreport.org/vegetarian-vegan-diets-may-increase-heart-disease-risks/1610/

    As for environmental arguments, perhaps you can explain why locally produced meat is more harmful than transporting your fresh veg halfway around the world?
    Natural is it? Blatantly not when so many supplements are required and it's so hard to have a reasonable diet.
    Seems the arguments are pretty easy to poke holes in, and it's always amusing when they go on about problems caused but still smoke, drink, or even drive!!
    Oh but of course, it's not our business to tell them how to live their lives! Ironic? Hypocritical? Well, yes actually - unless you're living in a forest in a completely natural way, then you should keep quiet and let everyone get on with their own lives.

    Of course this is all more important than any other world issues too.....:bugeye:
     
  9. chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member

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    We all live unnatural lives in the first world.

    And I do try to buy stuff that's grown handier...but that's not always made easy.

    Trust me, I get tired of paying for the beast in the driveway, but no car=no job, because I would not be able to get there.

    What you eat is of only moderate importance...achieving sustainability is of vital importance.

    Have a rice rat.

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  10. Me-Ki-Gal Banned Banned

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    I have known a lot of people that can't quite eat Meat . They will play around with it and then sneak it to dog when your not looking . Children do that too.You can't have any pudding until you eat your meat . Most of the people have been women . More so than Men . Now I do like a girl who can chow down on a piece of raw meat with out fork or knife , but to tell you a veggy girl is not as good as a meaty girl . I don't bout that . Lets just say they have different eating habits
     
  11. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    Quoted material on the OP about avoiding "vitriol" or "argument" seems a bit misplaced to me, since about the only time such "discussions" ever occur is when one or both sides are looking to proeletyze to the other. Note the sensational, overwrought (even for Salon) verbiage that the author uses at every opportunity, for example.

    But one other thing that puzzles me is this gem:

    I've never seen "bloodless" beef for sale anywhere, unless it's already been cooked - there's always at least a noticeable amount of blood, and a little absorbtive packet included to sop it up. Some times it's more than just "noticeable." Pork and chicken are different stories.

    Also, as someone who relishes various viscera, blood sausage, etc. - and likes my steaks rare and bloody, and has killed/gutted is own dinner before, partaken of roasts of entire pigs and goats, etc. - I take offense at this strawmanning of omnivores as squeamish hypocrits. But apart from the cheap tactic there, I doubt that your average omnivore would be much deterred by more blood, viscera and killing - the filth and artificiality of factory farms are a different story, though.
     
  12. scheherazade Northern Horse Whisperer Valued Senior Member

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    I wonder how much of the lobby in regard to how much grain is consumed by animals for food may be in the interests of bio-fuel?

    Another question might be who stands to benefit by doing away with the industries that raise meat?

    I am not defending the factory farming of animals for food, for there is no question that many of the practices are not humane.
     
  13. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    Yeah, the "personal health" arguments in the OP article are pretty poor. Not sure, but my guess is that somebody who was all about health would still be eating meat. Just not as much, and not certain types - but most of the health nuts I know are all about chicken breasts, fish, etc.

    I don't think I've ever met anyone who's gone vegetarian for simple health reasons. I know people who've quit red meat and bacon for health reasons (but not meat in general). And I've known vegans who gave up and restarted eating meat for health reasons. But nobody who's gone vegetarian for health reasons (temporary things like juice-fasts not withstanding). There's always a philosophical or religious angle involved.

    But let's bear in mind that Salon is a link-bait site and this is pretty obviously written for vegetarians with chips on their shoulders. Most vegetarians I've known would not appreciate the whole rejection of the "it's just a personal choice" angle, since their preference seems to be to not have to always be expected to explain themselves. So this article seems to be of fairly narrow appeal - it's for vegetarians who want to go around preaching about it. Almost all of which are college freshmen who will have given up on vegetarianism by graduation, so I suppose the distinctly undergraduate tenor of these talking points is well-suited.
     
  14. Me-Ki-Gal Banned Banned

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    Yeah !! Eat Mo Beef . Mo has free range beef . All Natural . I hunt his ranch by the crazy mountains . I killed 2 deer with one bullet on his ranch. He has got 20 inch brown trout in the Mussleshell river that runs threw his ranch also. His ranch is called Mo's . His last name is Moe . Funny aye . Eat Mo Beef ??


    Yeah that is what I thought about this thread . Preaching like a bible banging Christian. Were is the line drawn when it comes to preaching ?
     
  15. madanthonywayne Morning in America Staff Member

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    What would happen to all the cows, pigs, turkeys, chickens etc if we stopped eating and therefore caring for them? Or do you believe extinction is in the animals best interest?

    Arguably, the goal of all living things is to survive long enough to reproduce and ensure the survival of their offspring. Thus humans continuing to eat meat is in the interests of those species we use and protect. We could certainly treat them better, and pushing for that would show more concern for animals than advocating no one eat meat.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2011
  16. Anti-Flag Pun intended Registered Senior Member

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    Pff, walk. Or cycle. It just takes longer, and if you really cared you'd do it.

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    Why would meat be unsustainable? We eat plenty of other things to go with it, there's a lot of it, and much of it can be fed on things unfit for human consumption. It seems to have its place to provide nutrients we would otherwise struggle to find.
     
  17. Anti-Flag Pun intended Registered Senior Member

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    Well the fatty oils in fish are essential to a good diet. Meat(except rabbit) is also rich on other minerals harder to find and is probably best for protein.
    It seems to me balance is the key, which is something vegans lack. It's not like people eat meat for every meal!

    Same, and that's a very personal thing which I don't think we really should push on others.
    I'm always amused by how much they claim to care for animals, but seemingly not humans, otherwise you'd think all vegans would be socialist.

    Completely agree. If they're going for a moral/environmental stance there are many other things they would logically need to support, and they really need to be vegans and not vegetarians to have any point at all if they take that angle.
    Of course it still made it onto this forum regardless of its nonsense.
    Regardless I shall persist with my laughter.

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  18. chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member

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    I show up extremely late to work, exhausted and very smelly on a bicycle.

    "Why are you late!?!?!"

    "Well, Anti-Flag said if I really cared I'd commute 35 miles one way on a bicycle. Wow, my butt hurts. Wonder how I'm going to get home."

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    Houston's really freakin' sprawled.
    Very annoying; I don't like paying for the Japanese Princess. She takes me to the cleaners at the mechanic's.
    I did!
    I was hugely fat and all the vegans I saw were skinny little farts! So I was all like...hmmm...
    Now meat has a eww factor, I haen't eaten it since 1995.
     
  19. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Asguard,

    Where, on the CSIRO website for its diet, can you find its "advice for vegetarians and vegans"?

    If you can't find that, then it is reasonable to conclude that the CSIRO diet assumes that whoever is using that diet is a meat-eater to start with.
     
  20. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Sounds to me like quadraphonics is a meat-eater with a chip on his shoulder.
     
  21. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    or that they concider a vegitarian and vegan diet to be unhealthy and there for dont surport it
     
  22. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    So, in their advice to vegetarians, they say "Start eating meat as soon as possible!", do they? Where can I find that?
     
  23. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    As you are making the unsurported assumptions, i just suggested another alternitive (also unsurported) assumption.

    Concidering that diet actually suggests INCREASING most peoples intake of meat (300g a day is more than most people eat) its quite ovious that its not just a "oh well they are going to eat it so we might as well make the best of it" as you suggest
     
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