Vegetarian anatomy

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by Wisdom_Seeker, May 23, 2011.

  1. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

    Forgot that one. I experience the same. I am the only person on my mother's side of the family who has not had back surgery (in most instances, multiple surgeries) and dairy certainly exacerbates the problems I do have. I know part of the problem is genetic, but a large part of it is undoubtedly attributable to carrying around large backpacks for days, weeks, months on end throughout a good portion of the past twenty-plus years.

    Those were the items that I suffered least from, as well. And while I can eat corn, corn chips, etc., anything with corn syrup--which sadly compromises the bulk of many Americans' diets--seems to take a toll on me.

    There are those who "argue" that it's too expensive to eat well. One here, a moderator no less, posted a link to an article which purported to argue his case. Had he actually read the article, he would have noted that it stated precisely the opposite: it is significantly cheaper to subsist on proper foods.
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  3. scheherazade Northern Horse Whisperer Valued Senior Member

    Yes, the processed corn industry is one to take heed of although corn as whole vegetable is entirely different, not easy for most to completely digest. Still, we need a portion of indigestible fiber in our diets.

    I have worked in the retail grocery sector for six years now and I can attest that buying fruits and vegetables when they are in season can greatly reduce one's grocery bill.

    One of the challenges may be that home preparation of food takes time that many people perceive the do not have. I suggest that this is a misconception and that the time spent in preparing proper food will translate into significant savings once a few shopping and cooking skills have been acquired.

    Some ingredients may give the impression of costing more, but one will find they actually eat significantly less. The health benefits of attaining one's ideal weight without a struggle, having more energy and a brain that actually engages the topic are priceless, but that's just my opinion.

    The fact that these processed foods are offered so cheaply is an appeal to our desires, not our needs, and if you had any idea how much research goes into addictive food enhancers, you would likely be horrified. People should do a lot more research on what they put into their mouths.

    One of my other observations is that persons who consume excesses of sweets and refined foods are the ones who get more of the colds and flu. Makes sense when you consider that in the lab they use a culture of agar in microbiology work.

    I'm off to attend other matters. Very nice to have an exchange with you parmalee. Later.....

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  5. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    Many of the rest of us feel the same guilt over the living conditions of meat animals. Just because we intend to eat them is no excuse to treat them cruelly while they're alive. They don't have room to turn around and they're stacked on top of each other. The voters of California recently passed an initiative requiring more comfort for farmed animals. The farmers screamed and promised that the industry would have to leave the state because they could not compete with the price of out-of-state meat. We reminded them that trends like this always start in California but eventually are picked up by the rest of the country. Besides, we'll be happy to pay a premium for the meat of more humanely treated animals, just as people do today for the "free range" label. Which has become so trendy that some wags put it on their vegetables.

    As dog breeders we observe the same awakening regarding the "puppy mills" in Missouri. The voters in that state are organizing to put them out of business.
    You have to be careful to match the speed of your sport to the natural speed of the dog. Remember, like most mammals dogs are sprinters, not distance runners. Their anatomy is constructed to run fast for short distances, not to lope or "jog" at 4mph for half an hour. Your bike is probably moving at a good running speed for a medium-size dog, but don't make them match your distance. Their hearts and lungs don't have the aerobic capacity of a human, and their muscles don't have the same chemistry as ours. People who make large dogs like retrievers match their slow jogging pace often end up with injured animals. They'd do better to let a Scottie or a Maltese run joyfully as fast as he can to keep up for three or four blocks and then go home and watch TV.
    Dogs have spent 12,000 years adapting to our life and they love it. They'd rather do what the nearest human is doing than anything else on earth. But that doesn't mean it's physically healthy for them.

    I don't mean to criticize you, just pointing this out for the general community.
    Not me. Sugar is my primary nutrient and dessert is my favorite five meals of the day. (Although I manage to eat a nutritionally balanced diet in the other four meals.) I seldom take a sick day. When I left my government job in 1995 to try my luck in the cutthroat private sector they paid me off for something like six months of accrued six leave.
    I think it's because everything in my life is saturated with dog saliva, which must be a natural disinfectant.
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  7. chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member


    When I was quitting dairy, I decided to play guinea pig.
    As an experiment, after about a week or so of no dairy, I ate a big tub of yogurt...and had an asthma attack.

    I got my google-fu on (Slouching master! Hai!) and pulled up this link:

    People who have lung problems or preexisting allergies in which mucus is made...maybe ought to try eliminating dairy and see if it helps.
  8. scheherazade Northern Horse Whisperer Valued Senior Member


    Originally Posted by scheherazade
    One of my other observations is that persons who consume excesses of sweets and refined foods are the ones who get more of the colds and flu.

    You may have overlooked the more critical point in my post, Fraggle.

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    Persons who subsist on a primarily processed food diet (all that white flour gets converted to sugar in digestion) are the ones I was referring to. I quite agree that sugar can be utilized by some quite satisfactorily as an energy source, especially people who are quite active.
  9. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

    We take a trailer for longer trips or touring. Daisy typically sprints at 20-30 mph for about 1/4 to 1/2 mile and then slows to about 8-12 mph for the remainder--typically 2 or 3 miles in a stint. Our "routine" trip is to a huge park on the Delaware River, roughly 1 1/2 miles from our house. There she pursues any number of activities, from herding dogs (or kids) to squirrel-chasing, playing "goalie" (one of countless games she's invented), swimming, or whatever.

    Actually, we take the trailer out most of the time now anyways, as I'm usually bringing along my girlfriend's dog, a giant cocker spaniel, who's disinclined towards running alongside a bike.

    I'm not sure whether the "4 mph" was a typo or not, but I wouldn't call that a "jog"--my regular walking speed is around 5 mph and Daisy's is a good bit faster. Heelers, like border collies, tend to find moving at such a speed bordering on agonizing. I've read estimates that heelers and border collies working cattle can run upwards of 100 miles in a day. I find that a little difficult to believe, and I'm not sure how they went about measuring this--attaching some sort of ankle bracelet perhaps? Nevertheless, Daisy hasn't gone on a long bicycle tour yet, but Parmalee went on a number over the course of his 16-odd years--including a coast-to-coast one from Seattle to Provide, R.I.--and on certain days he would run well over 30 miles (broken up in quite a few shorter stints, of course). I was doing 60 to 100 miles daily, and he'd be a passenger in the trailer for a good part of the day.

    The breed of dog is an important consideration here as well. The more compact herding breeds--heelers, border collies, etc.--are better designed for endurance activities and distance running. My biggest concern with the biking is that most of the time she's running on pavement, which is more giving than a concrete sidewalk but obviously grass or dirt would be better. Still, compared with some activities, she's putting considerably less strain on the ACL as there are few sharp turns, rapid starting and stopping, and jumping.

    Also, people ought to refrain from vigorously exercising their dogs until they've reached full physical maturity between a year and a year-and-a-half to avoid stressing developing bones. This is difficult with extremely restless dogs, but critical nonetheless.
  10. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

    I referenced the living conditions, but I didn't intend to imply that I don't also object to the killing itself. Personally, I don't believe that there even can be such a thing as "humane farming" on such a massive scale. In fact, I tend to regard any such discourse which employs terms like "humane" or "welfare" with respect to animal matters with the utmost suspicion: invariably, such language is infernally ambiguous and has everything to do with marketing and the equation of anything and everything that is not human--though sometimes even humans, as well--as "capital."

    There's an unbridgable divide between those who stress animal welfare and those who are for liberation. Unfortunately, most of the organizations and personalities who ostensibly believe in the latter, effectively push for the former under the (false?) conviction that real change is only effected through "reforms" and gradual transformations of consciousness. Of course, such vanguardism is kind of anathema to real change (IMNSHO) anyways.

    I am well aware that my perspective on certain matters is "naive" and perhaps "unrealistic," but I am personally of a mind that for whatever precious "capital"--be it commodity or service--a person desires, they ought to be willing to kill, torture, or enslave whatever pig, chicken, Arab or Chinaman the production of said capital renders necessary themselves. I suppose that's why I don't work in advertising: my advert for, say, Fruit-of-the-Loom underwear would incorporate images of Asians slaving away in sweatshops.
  11. chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member

    I approve of this message

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  12. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

    I've thought about something like this for a performative installation, entitled The "Price" of "Things."

    There would be various stations throughout the gallery: one would depict a guy standing at a gas pump watching a giant video monitor displaying such things as an 80 year old Iraqi man being dragged through the streets by American troops; another would have a person picking up a slab of pork in a grocery, while watching a monitor displaying pigs in their subterranean concentration camps; yet another would feature a man selecting his socks and underwear inside of some big box store while viewing the goings-on of a typical sweatshop in China on the monitor... Well, you get the picture.
  13. chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member

    Sounds cool, actually.
  14. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    A standard military march is 4mph and when I was younger I could maintain that walking speed for a couple of miles. The treadmills in my gym identify 4mph as the dividing line between walking and jogging, but I never go above 3mph and use the grade to make it harder rather than the speed. Back when both of my knees were in good shape I tried jogging outdoors and I never went over 5mph.
    Sounds like a spit-in-the-wind guesstimate to me. If they work a ten-hour day their average speed for the entire day would be 10mph. Unlikely!
    No problem in our house, we raise Lhasa Apsos. This breed's idea of "strenuous exercise" is running three laps around the postage stamp-size yard behind a townhouse and then coming in to watch TV from the sofa.
    Ah, so you've been to Westminster, California.
  15. scheherazade Northern Horse Whisperer Valued Senior Member

    I am the record holder for the fastest time between Dawson City, Yukon and Eagle Alaska and return when the dog limit was seven dogs. A distance of 105 miles in 11 hours and 34 minutes. A two hour layover and the return trip was 13 hours and change. Can't quite remember the minutes. The physical capacity of the Alaskan Husky sled dog, bred for endurance, is beyond the comprehension of most city dwellers and their pets.

    Some info at these links.

    The Wikipedia information on the Yukon Quest is fairly accurate, although they leave out a lot of details.

    The first organizational meeting in Whitehorse with the Alaskan proponents of the idea took place in the basement of the local Elks Lodge. (I was the Canadian contact who arranged it.

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    ) My best friend of that time became the president of the Yukon Alaska Trail Committee, formed at that time, and the Alaskan board was known as the Alaska Yukon Trail Committee.

    A lot of politics in the history of this event.

    The Canadians pulled it through in 1995, once again my friends, who dragged me back in to be the Race Marshall that year. After that mission, it was time to move on.......

    The physical capacity of these dogs and their place in our history is an interesting read. The horse was our ally in milder climes, but it was the sled dog who aided and enabled us to settle in this harsher climate.
  16. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

    An average of 8-9 mph over half a day--wow! Re: capacity for endurance: I would say the same for heelers and border collies--the real ones, not the AKC variety (an organization for which I wish a slow and violent death upon most of it's members, I'll allow that at least a few are actually decent people *)--but not so many of the other herding breeds, except possibly kelpies.

    I move and travel a lot, between city and "country" (more like the middle of nowhere), and without biking, I'd be screwed. A person on foot, with the possible exception of marathon runners, simply cannot keep up with these dogs. My own (both "rescues"), and the ones I've fostered, mostly came from settings in which the person simply couldn't deal with their limitless energy. And when they don't get to do what they need to do, they take it out in nefarious ways: the moment I met Daisy, she bit me on the face--and I have a small scar to prove it!--and I said, "I'll take her."

    I've always been fascinated with sled dogs--especially the team dynamic. As you might have gathered, I don't "work well with others" and even with animals I function best in one-on-one scenarios. Although I'm a performer (musician) and I've played in front of groups of over a thousand at a time, that's completely different. There's just something about addressing, in an "intimate" way, more than a single entity at a time that confounds me.

    * And yes, I say shit like this (typically, much worse) to people's faces all the time--it's part of the reason that I'm no longer allowed in your country without a special permit which I have to shell out a few hundred bucks for! All this, in spite of the fact that my wife (yes, I write "girlfriend" out of habit) is Canadian.

    Funnily, I don't have these problems so much in Europe or elsewhere, though my behavior is much the same. I blame Stephen Harper for turning Canada into... well, I'll leave it at that. I'll simply say that Canada has grown more and more like my own pathetic shit-hole of a country (the U.S., obviously) in recent years, and it saddens me.
  17. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

    Though I wouldn't be all that surprised to find that the actual figure is in the 60 to 80 mile daily range--see Scheherezade's response.

    That had always been my experience as well, until recently: I know one now who can literally run for hours.

    Well, New York as well, for that matter--sweatshops are all over the city.
  18. scheherazade Northern Horse Whisperer Valued Senior Member

    Hello parmalee,

    My own line of Alaskan Huskies had a fairly good amount of Border Collie in them for the smarts and the tough feet, bred back with the traditional Siberian Husky for the shorter coat. They also had quite a bit of Black Lab, which has a very water resistant hair coat and made the hair between their pads more resistant to balling up with ice. My dogs had amazingly good feet which I further aided by feeding a lot of gelatin to them, to promote pad growth and flexibility.

    In regards to Canada becoming more like the U.S., I don't think Harper can take all of the credit. Our economic policies and culture are deeply entwined. The Homeland Security strategies and measures have also mandated a lot of our cross border legislation.

    Things have changed significantly in the last decade and several immigrants have expressed to me that North America is more frightening in some of it's controlling aspects than some of the repressive regimes that they had formerly known.

    We pay lip service to individual rights and freedoms, while at the same time we enable technologies to monitor the movements and words of those free individuals.

    One reason why I am affiliated with none save the union which is mandatory at my place of employment.

    Probably my very non-affiliation puts me on a list of 'suspicious activities.'

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    Oops.....getting a bit off-topic for a thread on vegetarian anatomy. My apologies to Wisdom Seeker........
  19. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

    Oddly, Parmalee, with nearly 16 years of running through a few dozen of North America's filthiest cities, never experienced any pad problems; neither has Daisy. Certainly, we take some precautions, but one can only do so much: city streets are what they are. The most extreme cold we've had to endure was a couple of hours north of Toronto (can't recall where specifically), but for a very short period. So we have very little to go on in that regards.

    I've always admired the smarts of border collies, but it's of a very different nature from that of heelers. Simply put: border collies can, and do, follow direction; heelers only follow direction if it suits them. In fact, I've never seen more than two working together at a time, and can't imagine anything more.

    (Very off-topic, but I've fashioned a lineage that goes something like this: Foucault--->>>Lyotard--->>>Deleuze--->>>Heelers. That is, heelers are the quintessential post-structuralist thinkers. While most folks will construe their manner of speaking and doing as schizophrenese, a broader, considered perspective will reveal the ingenuity of it.

    This is consistent with Plato's declaration that dogs are the quintessential philosophers, albeit for very different reasons. Plato maintained that dogs are the guardians of truth; but heelers tend to explode monolithic and homogeneous conceptions of such in favor of the amorphous and the anything but "static." Likewise, they demolish any and all delusions of vertical structuring.)

    I would have thought that the sort of coat that black labs are prized for would not be especially suited to extremely cold climates. Or maybe I'm just not all that clear on how specifically their coats are "water-resistant." It seems like, while the water doesn't necessarily "penetrate," it just sort of hangs on them nonetheless. Wouldn't this just freeze up almost instantaneously in lower temperatures, and possibly impede their movement and lower their body temperature? What am I missing here?

    I was over-simplifying out of laziness of course, but I do find the cultural aspect especially perplexing. It seems there was a time when most Canadians prided themselves--and rightly so--on not being, uh, "American." (How the U.S. managed to co-opt that name solely for it's own is beyond me.) But I don't get that sense so much anymore: in lower B.C. and the broad metropolitan Vancouver area, one actually sees a lot of Canadian flags waving on July 1st these days. Of course, "Americans" will tattoo an American flag on their assholes, but Canadians, in the past, were never the flag waving sort.

    What I find especially ironic, is what passes for "liberalism"--and especially "left-wing"--in North America anymore. Northwestern cities--Portland, Seattle, and Vancouver--have long been a bastion of so-called "progressive" and "liberal" thinking, but they strike me as anything but outright fascistic. Sure, a person is less likely to call someone a "faggot" or a "nigger" in those cities, but what they're actually thinking remains unclear.

    For many years, I had an outstanding arrest warrant in Seattle for having a few dozen unpaid (of course) "leash-law" violations. And it wasn't just the "authorities" who were always on my back, it was the freaking "citizens." Needless to say, my dogs have always been impeccably well-educated and well-behaved, but that was inconsequential; somehow, dogs at liberty has become a matter of "political correctness" in the Pacific Northwest.

    Well, that's what "they" fear most: the non-organizational. Those who don't belong to groups, pay dues, provide constant updates as to their whereabouts and goings-on via cell phones, Twitter, whathaveyou, pose an imminent threat.
  20. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

    Anyhows, getting back on topic, can someone--anyone--back up that oft-repeated claim that vegans suffer far more from anemia and B12 deficiency? I've yet to see any evidence for this. And while you're at it, include some comparative stats with regards to prevalence of obesity, hyper-tension, high blood pressure, etc. between vegans and everyone else.
  21. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    In the evolutionary context that a thread on "vegetarian anatomy" would inhabit, young children and pregnant/nursing women would be of central importance - not special cases, but the norm at the center of discussion.

    The "resources" available to modern industrial-culture people would be more the exception, and in need of careful scrutiny.

    Even if healthier for modern industrial people, at least the adult males, a vegan diet would not therefore be "natural" or easily adopted - the argument would need to be made on other terms.

    As far as lactose intolerance, I know of two people who seem to have reversed a progressive tendency to react poorly to milk by striking wheat gluten from their diet. They now feel much better drinking milk than they did eating bread - in one case, a quick and complete remission of two years of more or less continual diarrhea and frequent menstrual cramps (with or without milk, worse with). I've begun to squint at lactose intolerance in anyone from the northern inland European genetic lineage long adapted to dairy and sunlight shortages.

    We live with an industrially corrupted supply of all kinds of food - even fruit, nuts, fish, and shellfish, which (uniquely) in any reasonable situation provide very good nutrition for long periods eaten raw and without significant processing, need attention these days.
  22. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

    I'm very much in agreement with you there--I think discussions of the human's "natural diet" or "vegetarian anatomy" frankly are kind of silly and futile when they go in these directions. So I wasn't arguing such with respect to that, but rather just responding to a statement made with regards to those of us living today, and very likely in affluent, industrialized societies.

    I don't know. I do think there are far too many claiming to be "lactose intolerant," as it is defined: products such as yogurt and many cheeses do not contain lactose, and yet many claim to have problems with these as well; so it would seem that something else entirely is going on here, if they do indeed have such "problems." (I'm not intending to dismiss than many do have problems by the scare quotes: I think many do, but I also think that many have simply succumbed to effective marketing for drugs that purportedly counter lactose intolerance).

    The problems I experience, which I do not call lactose intolerance, do very much seem to be attributable to certain dairy products--and not always ones containing lactose even. Nevertheless, it certainly seems to be something dairy related and eliminating dairy has resolved them. OTOH I, at least, seem to do alright with gluten, and I'd venture that I consume a fair bit more gluten than do most (except perhaps Chinese vegetarians who use it in virtually everything

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    Of the fruits and vegetables for which we tend to consume without peeling (or "skinning"), I've always been suspicious of those who claim not to discern any difference in taste between certain organic and/or locally grown varieties, and the products of major agribusiness--particularly carrots and tomatoes. As regards the nutritional value and/or potential "risks" of either variety, I'm not entirely clear; but if you can't discern a qualitative difference in flavor, your taste buds and discriminatory capabilities have got to be seriously compromised/corrupted.
  23. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    We stopped registering our puppies with the AKC several years ago. For a while we used the UKC because it's cheaper and doesn't make any pretense of doing anything except registering bloodlines. But then we stopped even doing that. None of the people who buy our puppies care. They're so happy to buy from people who treat their breeders like pets instead of livestock and let them sleep on the bed, that they just assume we must be decent in all the other ways too.

    It isn't exactly the AKC that has ruined the breeds, so much as the people who feel so competitive about show dogs, and their customers who feel so competitive about buying a dog from a "champion" bloodline. That's just the way Americans are. We'll probably figure out a way to turn farting into a high-stakes contest and it'll be on TV next year. If the AKC weren't there, somebody would invent it.
    Staffed by Asians?
    It's because it's the only name we've got. The people of los Estados Unidos Mexicanos can call it "Mexico," and therefore they are "Mexicans." Following that same model, that makes the people of the United States of America, "Americans." In Spanish they can call us estadounidenses because Spanish just happens to have a fortuitous suffix for nationalities, and because Spanish is a highly polysyllabic language and a seven-syllable name for oneself is nothing out of the ordinary.. If we tried to render a similar construction it would come out as "Unitedstatians." English is a more compact language and we simply don't coin six-syllable names for ourselves.

    We should just take the acronym USA to the next stage, spell it Usa and pronounce it OO-sah. Then we could all be Usans. The Hungarians call our country OO-sha.
    Actually it's only the assholes who do that.

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    Back in the 1960s when so much of the country was protesting racism, police brutality, religion and the Vietnam War, the Southerners realized that those are their values! So they stole our flag and made themselves out to be more American than the rest of us.

    It got worse after 9/11. Go into any bar in the South and pull out the staples on a corner of the gigantic American flag behind the bandstand, and you'll find the gigantic Confederate flag that was there on 9/10. They never took it down because they still believe "The South will rise again." Five of them have been presidents (some of the worst in history), what more do they want?
    They tend to focus on environmental issues. Pollution, deforestation, energy, global warming, etc.

    As the Linguistics Moderator I question your use of the word "fascist." The most succinct definition of fascism I've ever seen is "resistance to transcendence." The Greenies may have co-opted the techniques of the fascists to promote their agenda, but to transform the world into an environmental paradise is hardly resistance to transcendence. Frankly it strikes me as more socialist. And yes, I know that Nazi is an abbreviation for "national socialist."

    We libertarians call both the fascists and the socialists "statists" because they both believe in unlimited power for the state. The people on the left want to take away our money first and the people on the right want to take away our rights first, but in the long run both of them want to take away all of our money and all of our rights.
    Surely you understand that in a large community comprised of people who have to find a way to live in harmony and cooperation with total strangers, you simply cannot grant exceptions. They don't know how trustworthy you and your dogs are. Even if they do, they'll insist that they and their dogs are just as trustworthy (everyone knows that their dog would never be naughty) and demand the same exception to the leash law that the government grants you. They'll just start letting their dogs run loose. Before long it will be 1950 again with dogs overturning trash cans, chasing cats and cars, biting children who play a little too rough, and being run over in the street.

    We've got coyotes, raccoons and bears for that, we don't need dogs doing it too.
    Indeed. I developed lactose intolerance in my late 20s, and it's very specific. I eat cheese all the time. I can even eat cereal by using a blend of one part cream and two parts water--there's not much lactose in cream so I can get away with it.
    I don't notice the difference, but it's because I simply don't like vegetables and only eat them out of duty. They're okay in a nice sauce, with the nutrients carefully cooked out of them, but there ain't no such thing as a "good" carrot.

    There, I mentioned vegetables so I'm back on topic.

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