Vegetarian anatomy

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by Wisdom_Seeker, May 23, 2011.

  1. Wisdom_Seeker Speaker of my truth Valued Senior Member

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    Hi Bells, I'm truly sorry for upsetting you. Please accept my apologies since it is not my intention to cause any harm to anybody.
    When one speaks about the healthiness of a certain lifestyle or personal choices, there will be exceptions of the rule inevitably.
    As I said earlier, there are people that live in inhospitable environments and without the meat it would be very difficult to stay healthy and/or even survive. Maybe I forgot to mention that for some people, due to their metabolism, it may be damaging to adopt such a diet (although this is a small minority).

    In the statement I made that you quoted, I was responding to nietzschefan with my personal experience, that at the beginning of my change in diet; I experienced feelings of weakness and it was kind of physically uncomfortable. But these symptoms were just of my body adjusting to the new diet regime (also to the inexperience in the variety of food required to have a balanced nutrition); and after that it was all good, I can bow for that.
     
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  3. Believe Happy medium Valued Senior Member

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    For the chickens I agree. For the cows I would have to say that they are usually fed extra food beyond what the 2.5 acres provides (vitamin licks, hay, ext...) making it more accurate then you may think.
     
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  5. Believe Happy medium Valued Senior Member

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    Seriously calm down.
     
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  7. Believe Happy medium Valued Senior Member

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    Also, you have no need to apologize.
     
  8. scheherazade Northern Horse Whisperer Valued Senior Member

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    We must be the only species on the planet for whom WHAT we should eat is a dilemma, yet when one contemplates the wide diversity of habitats that we have migrated into or artificially made capable of sustaining us, it really should come as no surprise that there is such a range of opinions.

    Additionally, our diet varies as we go through the stages of our life and the needs of the infant, are different from the needs of the weanling, the teen, the young adult, the middle-aged adult and the senior. Men and women have somewhat different caloric and micro-nutrient needs, and the activities that we engage in also determine from what source we get our calories.

    Some endurance athletes may need fully treble the requirements of the average, especially for extreme sports in a cold climate.

    Nutrition is a fascinating topic and I was raised with the saying, "One man's meal is another man's poison", which is very logical when one examines all of the parameters.
     
  9. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    5,160
    Omnivores have the most selective advantage, since they can theoretically find food in the widest range of environments. They are not restricted to meat or veggie, but can eat what is most available. This may not matter within cushy western living, but it would in the wild.

    As an experiment;

    Say we picked a random unknown place on the earth, and sent omnivores and veggians to survive without any reference books. This will simulate early pre-humans. Which would survive easier?

    Plants tend to make more poisons than do animals. If you don't have a reference book, it might be safer to eat the local birds, bugs, fish, small and large animals. The plants would be of a challenge to eat, so we would need veggie volunteers. The result would be attrition among the veggies. The omnivores would eat their bugs and fish, while watching to see which plants are good and which to avoid, and then add that to their diet.

    If you look at humans, as we evolved, we migrated out of Africa. That means always wandering into new places to find food. This means a constant learning curve to get around the poison plants and find the local good veggies. Animals would be normally safe to eat, although more work to bring down or catch. The omnivores would migrate easiest, while the veggies would be better if the group decides to squat long enough to trial and error a good veggie diet.
     
  10. Nasor Valued Senior Member

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    6,231
    Sure. And your 300 chickens will need to eat about 15 tons of food ever year. How many acres do you think it takes to produce 15 tons of chicken feed?
     
  11. MacGyver1968 Fixin' Shit that Ain't Broke Valued Senior Member

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    Well...considering chicken feed is made from the byproducts of grain grown for humans...how would you count that?....and more importantly did the author of the graph take that into account?

    Do you think feeding 1-2 people off of 2.5 acres of chickens is a reasonable number?

    What people eat is their own business. I personally think it's great they we live in a land that produces enough food that people have the choice whether they eat meat or not. What I don't like is when people "fudge" the numbers to make their position sound stronger.
     
  12. Wisdom_Seeker Speaker of my truth Valued Senior Member

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    I also don't like when people do that, I would like to post an accurate chart to make the point; although can you point to a source where it contradicts what I posted? 'Cause I looked for at least 7 credible sources (documented in post #30).

    This off course, is a comparison graph that would be of an unlikely situation of 2 human beings eating only chicken for a whole year (breakfast, lunch and supper). I don't think they would survive, but this was just for comparison's sake.
     
  13. Wisdom_Seeker Speaker of my truth Valued Senior Member

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  14. Bells Staff Member

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    That is entirely my point. Your body is not the same as others. Your reaction or response to vegetarianism is not a healthy one but you stuck with it and sucked up the detriments. My point is that you are taking a standpoint in this thread to say 'well I had issues and now I'm fine so you should be too'. That is how you are arguing this. And it is a dangerous stance to take because it can adversely affect others if they actually believe you and think they will be the same.

    It took you years to adjust? In that time, you deprived your own body of vital nutrients to ensure your health and you suffered in that time. How that will affect you in the long term will remain to be seen as the effects could take years to show itself in your body.

    Were you going through this dietary change under the guidance of a doctor, for example? Have your blood tested to check your iron levels and vitamin levels? Liver and kidney checks? These are things that will affect you in the long term. While the ongoing diet is healthy, it can leave you lacking in a lot of vital nutrients. Have you checked your iron, zinc, vitamin B12 levels regularly to make sure you do not need supplements or eat foods that have been modified to enrich them in these nutrients and vitamins?

    Personally speaking, if someone wishes to have this kind of dietary change, they should do so with medical supervision and have constant tests to ensure they have the correct nutrient intake to ensure they do not suffer from medical issues later on in life. Especially so if one is a teenager or child or pregnant.

    What I am asking is that you do not recommend something unless you also advise them of the risks involved. For example:

    How wonderful!

    While black tea is fine, korean ginseng is actually bad if you are pregnant or trying to get pregnant or while breastfeeding as it is harmful to developing a foetus and to developing babies and small children. And it comes through breastmilk. You need to be wary when posting on forums such as this that someone out there may actually take your advice..

    It can also be highly detrimental for diabetics and those who have blood pressure issues or heart issues or clotting issues. And if someone suffers from an illness or disease that affects their muscles, then yeah, do not drink it. And yet, here you are saying it has benefits for people with immunte system issues and blood pressure issues. What? People with auto-immune disorders should NEVER drink ginseng because it can make them worse and it can affect one's heart and blood pressure. And if you have cancer such as uterine or breast cancer - it can act as a form of estrogen.

    Tea is great, but please do not recommend it without telling others of the dangers.

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  15. Wisdom_Seeker Speaker of my truth Valued Senior Member

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    Not really, I was doing great in less than a year, it took about 3-4 months for the body to get rid of all the crap accumulated in past years (the colon literally get’s filled with crap when you eat meat). So for meat eaters, or those who eat or drink lactose it is recommended that you get at least 1 barium enema each 5 years.
    Then it took a while to adjust to the nutrition required, but that was because I wasn’t informed of all the variety of food and nutrition awareness one needs as a vegetarian. Nearly before the full year, I was doing great with the food, body and everything.

    You can find almost all of those on enriched cereals, milk and eggs, but here is a more informed answer:

    Sources of Iron:
    Soy beans, blackstrap molasses, lentils, spinach, quinoa, tofu, enriched bagel, lima beans, swiss chard, black beans, chickpeas, potatoes, and others.

    Souces of Zinc:
    Breads, grains, cereals, legumes, soy foods, nuts and seeds, vegetables (corn and peas), dairy foods.

    Sources of B complex vitamins:
    Milk and eggs (if you a vegan, it requires supplements).

    You are right about that.

    If you are a vegetarian, and drink tea, then you shouldn’t drink it 1 hour before or after big meals; because it decreases non-heme iron absorption. Also, eat fruits and drink beverages high in vitamin C to increase iron absorption.
     
  16. Wisdom_Seeker Speaker of my truth Valued Senior Member

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    2,184
    Other tips for vegans and vegetarians (or people curious about the beloved protein):

    • Eggs are the protein per excellence as it is a very complete protein full of essential amino acids.
    • When given the choice, go for the "whole grain" version of the food, quinoa is the king of whole grain protein.
    • Legumes (beans, lentils, chickpeas and others).
    • Tofu and all soy products.
    • Nuts, seeds and other dry fruits.
    • Wheat.
    • Hemp protein is great.
     
  17. Skeptical Registered Senior Member

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    1,449
    Source of B complex vitamins - beer!

    The barium enema advice is total bulldust. No-one needs this sort of destructively intrusive 'therapy'. If you are not moving digested food through your gut fast enough, it is because you are not eating enough fibre. A small change in diet will fix that.

    Things like this, and other bulldust like liver cleansing, and de-tox systems are just intellectual garbage invented with no scientific backing by the alternative health industry to give them another way to lighten your wallet.

    While Wisdom-seeker is fully entitled to make his own choices about diet, it is not right to tell others to follow suit, when the results are problematic.

    There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that small amounts of animal protein as part of your diet is anything but totally healthy. In fact, the evidence that large amounts are unhealthy is rather sparse. Such evidence does exist, but only from a few small studies, and the 'harm' from eating meat may be a lot less than the anti-meat zealots would suggest. There is, in fact, a lot of data that suggests that lots of low fat meat in the diet is an aid to weight loss, when that is required.

    The ideal diet involves maximum variety. This includes variety in animal proteins, such as red meat, poultry, fish, eggs, and dairy products. Small amounts of that should be combined with maximum variety in fruits, vegetables, nuts, and whole fibre grains.

    This needs to be combined with an effort to keep consumption of the four S's to smaller amounts. ie. Saturated fat, salt, sugar, and starch that is over-processed (without fibre).

    Veganism is not the ideal human diet. Ovo-lacto-vegetarianism can be good, but I suspect that the wider variety of animal protein food would be better.
     
  18. Wisdom_Seeker Speaker of my truth Valued Senior Member

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    2,184
    I didn't know, I'll drink to that :cheers:

    Yeap, pretty informed answer.
    But about the accumulated stuff, tis true; I was a regular meat eater (although not in excess) and I had a high-fiber diet (I've always loved whole grain foods, fruits and vegetables). I would say that if you refuse to leave meat behind it is ok, but the healthy choice would be to eat about 1 or 2 times a week.
    I used to eat meat almost every day, as it is common in my culture; and at the beginning of my vegetarian diet I was ok, but after the first month, and up to the 3rd or 4th month, I was a pooping machine man, I was surprised to see that much stuff going out of me. I was defecating 4-5 times per day, and each of those times, was voluminous to say the least. I can only say I had a lot of accumulated stuff from my meat eating habits.
    After that cleansing period my digestion process regulated to what is considered the healthiest.
     
  19. Bells Staff Member

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    24,270
    So have you been tested regularly? Yes or no?

    You completely missed the point, didn't you?

    You were recommending certain herbs to a complete stranger when you do not know if VI is pregnant, is a diabetic or suffers from any other conditions that would make ingesting said herbal tea very dangerous for her.

    Can you please stop doing that?

    I mean you were recommending people have a barium enema? Are you serious? You have not provided any reliable or scientific sources to back up this claim or recommendation. Do you even know what a barium enema is and how and why it is used by doctors?

    So consider this a public warning Wisdom. Stop recommending medical treatments and herbal remedies such as ginseng when you know so little all about it. Just because you stopped eating meat and would have normally increased the amount of fibre intake and pooped lots (wow, who'd have thunk eating more fibre and drinking more water would make you poop more) does not mean it gives you the scientific knowledge or knowhow to then recommend that meat eaters get a barium enema every 5 years. It is intrusive, not to mention the risk of bowel perforation is huge. So no, it's not something that is recommended for meat eaters and dairy consumers to do every 5 years.

    And a word of advice to anyone reading this thread. Do not take Wisdom's recommendations without seeking professional medical advice from your doctor first.
     
  20. Wisdom_Seeker Speaker of my truth Valued Senior Member

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    2,184
    I was tested maybe more than 20 years ago (I used to be asthmatic as a child).

    I try to avoid doctors, I am a naturalist and live my life fully, and if disease or death comes, so be it. I like to live carefree.

    I was a very sick child, orthodox doctors couldn't deal with my asthma, and when I was 5 years of age, I told my mother that I rather die than keep ingesting medicines (I had already 2 years of normal therapy and felt awful). My mom was devastated because I would refuse to take anymore medicines, I was a naughty boy. And out of desperation she took me to an old Chinese doctor called Dr. Mao, he was a naturalist, acupuncturist and homeopath.

    The first thing Dr. Mao told my mom when he looked at her with me dying on her arms was: ”Do not take a step further if you and your family are not willing to stop eating meat”. My mom told him: “I would do everything you say if you make him get better”.
    After that, Dr. Mao told my mom he couldn’t really start the healing therapy if my blood was contaminated by so many medicines and meat. So it took 3 months of detoxification before he started acupuncture. It took 3 years for Dr. Mao to cure my asthma, and since then I’m a healthy man.

    Almost 5 years ago I was announced that Dr. Mao passed away, he was an old wise man of about 90 years of age then; part of my decision to adopt a vegetarian lifestyle was that I probably wouldn’t be alive if it wasn’t for him.

    I speak here on this thread of my personal experience, because I think it would benefit others. And I do not speak from ignorance as you are probably guessing. Everything I have said here is easily double checked by a quick investigation on Google. Except probably my personal experience itself, and that is why I post it here.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2011
  21. Skeptical Registered Senior Member

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    1,449
    Here is a nice mixture of scientific balderdash. I assume when you call Dr. Mao a naturalist, you really mean naturopath?

    Does not matter. naturopathy, acupuncture, and homeopathy have one thing in common. They are all quackery and work no better than the placebo effect.

    Naturopathy is a little different in that it is not all bad. However, to quote another skeptic " What it does that is good is not special. What it does that is special is not good." Naturopaths give good advice on exactly the kind of things any partially informed amateur would give good advice on. Diet and exercise. But their therapies are expensive and total garbage.
    http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Naturopathy/naturopathy.html

    Acupuncture has been tested scientifically an enormous number of times. It gives results that are placebo, due to suggestion. it makes no difference where the acupuncturist sticks his needles, as long as the patient 'believes'. In fact, you achieve exactly the same results with a blunt probe and just lie to the patient by saying it delivers a tiny electric current.
    http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/acu.html

    Homeopathy is the worst of the lot. As a therapy, it is the equivalent of pure fiction. A fantasy of therapy.
    http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/homeo.html

    The thing is, regarding asthma, is that kids grow out of it. You said it took Dr. Mao 3 years to 'cure' it. Guess what, sucker. After 3 years you would not have that asthma regardless of what treatment or lack of treatment you received.

    Your much revered Dr. Mao was a quack.
     
  22. Bells Staff Member

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    24,270
    Really?

    And the quick check I did on Korean Ginseng, also known as Panax Ginseng, which you recommended in this thread for blood pressure yielded these results, which I linked earlier and will post now since you do not appear to have actually looked at the link:

    "Heart conditions: Panax ginseng can affect heart rhythm and blood pressure slightly on the first day it is used. However, there are usually no changes with continued use. Nevertheless, Panax ginseng has not been studied in people with cardiovascular disease. Use Panax ginseng with caution if you have heart disease."

    http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/1000.html#Safety


    This is the herbal remedy you openly recommended in this thread for blood pressure. And I have not even posted the other detrimental affects Korean Ginseng can have on people with certain diseases, conditions or if they are pregnant, breastfeeding and to children. In fact, it is recommended that even grown up children not consume it due to the detrimental effects it has on development.

    So it is clearly not a benefit for everyone.

    And then you recommended barium enemas.. You claim to be a naturalist but you recommend that people get barium enemas..? I don't even know where to begin!

    Which is not the case for many people.

    Many children grow out of their childhood asthma but are medicated with relievers like Ventolin and have to use preventatives to maintain it. It is not "cured". You simply grew out of it.

    Not eating meat did not cure it. My 5 year old son does not eat meat. Refuses to touch it, with the exception of chicken on very rare occasions. He also does not eat fish. So we have to watch his diet closely and make sure he takes child supplements to ensure he has the nutrients and vitamins he needs to grow and develop normally. He also suffers from childhood asthma and will most likely grow out of it when he goes through puberty, or he may not. His lack of meat in his diet isn't a cure. So please, can the whole not eating meat cures asthma.

    Either cite your proven scientific sources and cease your dangerous health recommendations or go elsewhere. Do I make myself clear?
     
  23. Wisdom_Seeker Speaker of my truth Valued Senior Member

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    Yeah, I know about all that stuff; but still, I speak from personal experience, placebo or not, that "placebo" worked way better than the so called "real" medicines.

    I'm incredibly thankful to Dr. Mao, and I always will be. I don't care if there are a lot of quacks out there that give those ancient arts a bad name and care only for profit. The thing worked for me, I have remembrance of the whole process while 3 years of allopathic medicine was only killing me. Common doctors told my mother there was nothing else they could do than just continue giving me medicines.

    I remember everything that happened, the first day I went to Dr. Mao's office he stuck a needle in my finger (a little pinch), and the blood came out all dark and it really looked unhealthy. That's when he explained it was all poisoned by the medicines and meat. After the 3 months of detoxification I went through, he again checked for my blood state, it came out a healthy red. He explained that is what natural blood is supposed to look like. Just by the detoxification itself I was feeling healthier already (had less asthmatic attacks).

    Now when I get a wound, I see that healthy red and the flashback comes when he explained to me that this is the natural color of blood; and I don’t have to look for any studies to find this out. I just know that when you don’t contaminate your body with chemicals and artificial “food”, your blood will come out that color. And if you take allopathic medicines or intake artificial crap for food, your blood will come out dark and really nasty.

    I also know that you don’t need to get sick to go to a doctor; if you keep your body healthy in the first place you won’t get sick that easy.

    When I was 6 years old, we went to live to the beach. It is a tropical rainforest full of venomous snakes and insects; I am allergic to scorpions and such. Dr. Mao gave a medicine to my mom and told her to cherish it since it was very uncommon, he said it was for any kind of allergic reaction. I was stung by a scorpion 2 times while living there. The first time I was asleep and I thought it was just an insect, although the pain was really something, and I had a dangerous allergic reaction, my tongue was getting increasingly inflamed, my whole body was shaking and I was having much trouble breathing. When I got to my mother’s room I could barely speak, and she gave me the medicine from her treasured medicine cabinet. The allergic reaction ceased and slowly I began to feel better.
    I asked her about that medicine she gave me; she told me the story of how she got it.

    Dr Mao could have been many things I don’t know, but he wasn’t a phony. And I don’t think that if my mom would have given me “sugar” for medicine, my allergic reaction would have stop like that. Or my asthma would have been cured in 3 years for good.

    “Placebo” or not, I am alive right now, and healthier than ever before.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2011

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