VB Strong A.I. Project

Discussion in 'Intelligence & Machines' started by Baal Zebul, Apr 23, 2004.

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  1. Baal Zebul Somewhat Registered User Registered Senior Member

    Actually, when using data you run the algorithm as usual. When learning from either hearing or seeing you run it roughly in reverse.
    Pretty obvious that the opposite from leanrning is usage of learned data.

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    Well, you have a computer that can do both of those things but somehow you do not see your computer as a holy grail, or do you?

    Just because i say "Great question" does not mean that i have to think about it. It just means that it is one of the questions that actually touch my AI.

    well, as you wish. if you actually want to hear anything about the AI then just mail me.
    I will stick to my professionals instead.
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  3. Persol I am the great and mighty Zo. Registered Senior Member

    How do you plan on this identifying object using video?
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  5. Baal Zebul Somewhat Registered User Registered Senior Member

    i deleted my reply to that question. If you want the answer then mail me instead.
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  7. Persol I am the great and mighty Zo. Registered Senior Member

    Perhaps a question you can answer.

    How do you plan to solve a dozen on more complex problems that the field of AI has been completey unable to solve, do it with a normal computer, and do it with random programmers? If you don't want to answer, then fine... but you aren't going to get many volunteers. Your idea is very 'pie in the sky' and unless you can back it up I don't see people wasting thier time on it.
  8. Baal Zebul Somewhat Registered User Registered Senior Member

    let me first ask you,

    Why would i post something that was not true?
    Secondly,why would i not post more unless it was true?
    Respect can obly be achieved by having actuall proof.
  9. Persol I am the great and mighty Zo. Registered Senior Member

    I'm not saying you don't believe it is true. I'm saying that you haven't demonstrated that you actually understand the difficulties and barriers to what you propose.

    You are promising the 'holy grail' of AI... yet seem to not see the practicalities that stand in the way. These include:
    shape identification via video
    3d modeling from shape identification
    object pattern matching
    how an AI 'without knowledge' picks the right solution on the first try
    'good' computer simulation (IE: collision detection and object interaction)
    storage method of knowledge learned
    method of converting input to data
    method of logic (A is B so C is D)
    processing speed (how do you do this on a standard computer)
    -expontential growth problem. more knowledge leads to slower speed.
    language processing

    etc, etc, etc.

    There are many many many things that your AI has to do, each of which is basically a field in itself. You don't seem to recognize the scale of what you are doing.
  10. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

    If Baal and his team are that dedicated to their cause, then they will most certain do what is necessary to achieve their goal.

    Just because there isn't a "HOWTO" or "DUMMIES Guide" to building an A.I. being posted on the board doesn't mean that their intensions of building one aren't genuine.

    I would suggest Baal that you might think along the lines of doing this perhaps as a larger project, which you might suggest doesn't have some of the monetary benefits.

    Admittedly you would have to e-mail/message me via Hotmail/MSN to get an understanding of how I mean.
  11. Persol I am the great and mighty Zo. Registered Senior Member

    I'm not saying his interest isn't genuine, but that his saying he 'has the answer' isn't genuine. Hard work alone doesn't provide results when you don't they don't even know the scale of what it is they are trying to accomplish.
  12. Baal Zebul Somewhat Registered User Registered Senior Member

    Stryder, You have been nothing but nice to me. I thank thee and unlike other forums SciForums is a place that i would like to be a member of.

    I accept your offer to chat with thee.

    Persol, ill mail thee instead.
  13. malkiri Registered Senior Member

    This is exactly the problem.

    Because there's a difference between the real world and text.

    Again, you don't get it. I'm not saying your AI in particular will not be able to do it. I'm saying any intelligence whatsoever cannot do this on the first try unless it has prior knowledge.

    That's not at all what I was saying. I'm saying your AI will not be able to do it.

    No, you didn't. I don't care about movement, although that is a separate issue. I'm talking about simple orientation in relation to the goal.

    I don't buy into your idea to warrant spending any more time with it. You're not really answering my questions sufficiently, either because of a language barrier or simple avoidiance because of faults in your concept, not to mention your reluctance to share certain parts. Good luck with your project. Negative as it may sound, I neither believe nor hope you will succeed; the former because I think you're shooting far too high, and the latter because I believe your secrecy will not serve the field of AI, though I understand that different people have different motivations.
  14. Persol I am the great and mighty Zo. Registered Senior Member

    Please PM me. (Basically email within this forum.)

    My impression is that you don't grasp the size of what you are trying to do, but I look forward to a few more details. I know basic, C, pascal, and can probably learn something else if you program in that instead.

  15. Blindman Valued Senior Member

    Ohh the pain the pain... Come on people is surprises me that you don't understand the meaning of AI...
    Things to consider.
    First AI means human like intelligence. It does not mean intelligence made by humans.
    Second. Intelligence is inherent in all turing machines.
    Anyone who has ever created an "if then else" statement will have created an intelligent machine.
    Baal Zebul. You should stop using the acronym AI because your project is not an AI. You will save your self a lot of grief when selling the project.
  16. Baal Zebul Somewhat Registered User Registered Senior Member

    malkiri, How to create a fully functional robot (in the real world), that is your question.
    Well, i have many conservative people on my crew but all of them are negative in an way that the concept profits from.
    If it was not for Vincent who said "No, it lacks [something]" then i would not have come up with everything that i have now. But your just saying "No" and not what it lacks.

    Let's just put it like this, i have solved the problem with implementing it into our world. How? Well that will remain secret so that the AI community does not profit from it.

    Artificial Intelligence is using pre-programmed data "intelligently"
    Whilst i rather say that Real Artificial Intelligence features obtaining that data.

    Id say the prmary reason is my inability to trust.
    If you ever feel that you know better swedish than i know english then send me a PM.

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    If this was one month ago then i might had said more but one of my members left and stole my AI concept, unfortunatly he is not as clever as me so he is trying to solve the real world integration with Pixel-Based pattern recognition (analysing a image pixel for pixel). So if you ever want somebody to harass then i could give you his hotmail because all your critisism fits what he is doing.
  17. Baal Zebul Somewhat Registered User Registered Senior Member


    Need someone who is extremly good at extremly advanced math. We are working on a hard problem for real world integration. We have the concept complete but we need the math correctly in order to be able to code it.
  18. DennisGorelik Registered Senior Member

    I design strong AI and have a web-site dedicated to that problem:
    <a href="http://www.dennisgorelik.com/ai/overview.htm">http://www.dennisgorelik.com/ai/</a>

    Leda, I enjoy your questions. They are strait to the point.
    The core memory consists of two database tables.
    1) <a href="http://www.dennisgorelik.com/ai/ConceptTable.htm">Concept table</a>.
    2) <a href="http://www.dennisgorelik.com/ai/CauseEffectRelationTable.htm">Cause-effect relation table</a>.

    So, every concept can be related to any other concept.
    Every relation has a weight.
    The higher the weight is, the stronger cause-effect relation between the concepts is.

    Just give you a hint about the size of the tables.
    For instance, Concept table could have 10 million records (concepts)
    Relation table could have 200 million records (cause-effect relations).

    Any questions are very welcome!

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  19. DennisGorelik Registered Senior Member

    Every object in the real world can be represented by one concept in AI memory. Actually not just one concept, but concept + many relations to other concepts (and other concepts also relate to the next set of concepts).

    <a href="http://www.dennisgorelik.com/ai/Concept.htm">Concept</a> alone holds very small amount of information, but together with references and other concepts anything can be described.

    Some concepts in AI memory are connected to <a href="http://www.dennisgorelik.com/ai/PeripheralDevices.htm">peripheral devices</a>.
    That solves "Grounding" problem.
  20. BigBlueHead Great Tealnoggin! Registered Senior Member

    Er, artificial means constructed, not "human like". Since other animals do not make AIs, we humans are generally forced to try our hands at it if we ever want to see one.

    Here is a Turing machine:

    1. Halt

    Is that intelligent? Well, no... it's about as intelligent as a grape. (Probably less - a Turing simulation of a grape would probably be much more complicated.)

    Eh... that's not really what anyone's talking about. Baal's talking about a relational engine that anticipates a series of actions required to achieve an arbitrary goal in a simulated world. "If then else" isn't going to cut it here.

    Baal: Your AI simulations aren't going to tell you anything about building an AI in the real world. Why bother? Why not just start with real-world prototyping? You'll probably learn a lot faster this way.

    Dennis Gorelik (if that is your real name)

    First, whereas you may be a real person, your AI website is crap - just a series of definitions of words that all refer to one another. I skimmed your documentation and this is all it contained - no suggestions of how your AI is made or what it does, no description of AI theory that couldn't be gotten out of a dictionary.

    To be honest, your page looks like it was assembled by a bot. And... not an impressive bot either.

    So, just to assuage my fears that you don't know anything, maybe you could answer me this...

    So basically, you have a series of nodes, with paths between them that have certain weights. The trick of determining a germane relation to the series of inputs the robot just received, then, will be to find the collections of nodes that relate to the input, that have the highest total weight to their paths.

    I believe in school we called this the Traveling Salesperson Problem. The main problem with this is that the complexity of the problem is N!, which grows very quickly as N grows.

    This means that, in a set of - say - twenty fully interconnected nodes, finding the optimum solution by direct comparison means testing


    possible paths.

    Assuming that you can test one of these every nanosecond (which would be pretty fast), that means the calculation of these solutions would take you 2432902008.17664 seconds

    = 40548366.802944 minutes

    = 675806.1133824 hours

    = 28158.5880576 days

    = 77.1468166 years.

    So, expect to die of old age waiting for your robot to process its first few inputs.

    Incidentally, if there were 21 fully interconnected objects, expect this problem to take (77 * 21) = 1617 years to solve. 22? (1617 * 22) = 35574 years.

    So, how do you intend to breeze past the mathematical problem (solving NP-complete problems within a reasonable time) that the entire world is still struggling with?

    Take your time...

    (Baal... do you have a solution? The fast expansion of relational systems is one of the biggest problems in AI, so you'd make a lot of people really happy if you came up with an answer.)
  21. Baal Zebul Somewhat Registered User Registered Senior Member

    Well, actually i have two new documents now.
    CES Artificial General Intelligence and Machine Vision (An introduction to SC-11 technology)
    CES Intelligent Neural Networks

    Well, i have changed the structure to a Neural Nets. But it is nothing like other Neural Nets, but the process flow has always been similar to Neural Nets.

    Btw, my real name is Rikard Svensson

    Here is a copy from our website:

    SC-11 - Number1
    Number1 will simulate a high-poly 3D forest with lots of trees, a blue sky and some clouds. The simulation will have a dynamic terrain and situated on it will be a Woodcutter, swining an axe at a tree. The Number1 simulation will use the latest technology (EDS, WFS and SRS) developed by Rikard Svensson in order to be able to mimic human movement without any prior knowledge by just viewing a visual stream. The AI used in Number1 is beyond the state of the Art AI by many years.

    SC-11 - Number2
    Number2 will simulate a short sequence of a bouncing ball. By having this information the Artificial Lifeform (also known as ALF) will use Origin Tracing (or OT) in order to calculate the origin of the bouncing ball and its presumed final destination. Origin Tracing is designed so that by just seing a short sequence of the bouncing ball it can still determine the gravity of the world (will be set to 9.81 m2/s) and it can also determine various features of the ball such as outer hull strength, texture, weight (if gravity is known) and much more.

    By designing a more complex version of the Number2 simulation it is also possible to detrmine Usage Area of the ball by having a simple 2D visual stream.

    SC-11 - Number3
    Number3 will be the last real computer simulation in the SC-11 series. Number3 will simulate a highly trafficed street and the ALF's task is to cross the road. Number3 might sound trivial compaired to Number1 but actually Number3 will require more usage of the latest CES technology.

    Number3 will have a limited window of opportunity to cross the road and it will have to use all it's technologies to seize the moment. The ALF can only look right, left or forward instead of having a overview of every action in the world at once. There is no other AI that can solve this without a optimized solution for that particular problem whilst the CES AI is universal.

    Number3 will cross the road on the first try, there is no trail and error neccesary. If it would fail then it is because some mathematical equations are wrong. The CES AI cannot fail since it is not controlled by code, it is controlled by environement and knowledge.

    Given that it can solve all those problems then it is ready for real-world integration. We will make a solution to Darpa's Grand Challange.
    And so that you do not think like Dennis:
    All the simulations will use the same universal solution and not a manufactured solution for every simulation. However SRS and RSS are totally different things and the ALF can use one (not both).
    What EDS, WFS, SRS and RSS means i will not write here.
    And i forgot to say, these samples focus mostly on machine vision rather than the AI, that we will have different samples for and i have not finished designing them all yet.

    BigBlueHead, would you be interested in a chat this weekend? (i will be online 24 hours every day of the weekend)
    My MSN messenger is, da_rikard@hotmail.com
    I also have ICQ but not installed on this computer but if i really have to ill download it.

    Same goes for you Stryder, if you are interested in a chat then please add me or tell me your ICQ or something (i do not have AIM)

    /Rikard Svensson - CEO, The CES Project
  22. Zarkov Banned Banned

    My pet project AI

    The programming language is immaterial.
    The brain uses mathematics, but is of a sort that is not known by humans.

    It is the mathematics of symbols, but not of numbers... I assure you there is a difference.

    This is why we write in letters or speak in sounds.... all mathematics.

    I would love to access a C programmer... sigh
  23. mouse can't sing, can't dance Registered Senior Member


    No, it is not. Some programming languages are more suited for one type of problem than others.

    You seem to be referring to predicate logic. It is well understood. However, as a method for creating AI it is not adequate.

    We write in letters or symbols because it is a convenient way of communicating. Not because it is "all mathematics".

    Why not learn it yourself? Forcing yourself to think in an abstract way and being pushed in a logical framework wouldn't do you any harm.
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