VB Strong A.I. Project

Discussion in 'Intelligence & Machines' started by Baal Zebul, Apr 23, 2004.

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  1. Baal Zebul Somewhat Registered User Registered Senior Member

    Anyone interested in a VB.net and/or C# project for creating real AI then mail me at da_rikard@hotmail.com and i shall tell you more about the CES Project and the SC-11 simulation.
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  3. transio Creative Genius Registered Senior Member

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  5. Persol I am the great and mighty Zo. Registered Senior Member

    'Real AI' in VBnet is just a funny group of words that should never be used together.

    As for 'real AI' in C#... well it's more likely... but I have no idea what you mean by 'real'
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  7. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

    Perhaps they mean "Real Artificial Intelligence" as aposed to "Something called Artificial Intelligence thats just a Bot(Autonomous piece of code)", however I don't think a real AI would be programmed in any conventional language, it would require at least assembly level and the entire manipulation of intelligence would have to be right down the very logic gates that the understanding of the language is constructed.

    (Afterall it's said we store and process information at the genetic level, this is what it would mean for a computer to assimilate the same)
  8. Persol I am the great and mighty Zo. Registered Senior Member

    The problem is that we don't REALLY know what intelligence is. We know it has something to do with the brain. Beyond that we are fairly clueless.

    "Afterall it's said we store and process information at the genetic level"
    I don't think this referes to the knowledge we is used by our 'intelligence'
  9. Baal Zebul Somewhat Registered User Registered Senior Member

    I have been programming since i was 7, i think i can determine which language i wish to use myself.
    However, there is not language which will optimally give my AI concept justice so we will create the CES programming language later on when we get paid for our work.

    What do i mean with Real? Well, human intelligence. I have a new concept with which i really can create a human replica, the beauty is that i do not need 10 super computers, i do not even need 1. A normal PC would do just fine for my AI, but it would need to be modified a little so that it suites our AI a lil better.

    k, the SC-11 simulation.
    We will start a artificial lifeform up in a room (will be built as a robot in the near future). We will start it up with no knowledge. (which will prove how adapable it is).
    It will have to figure out how to use the key on the door. It will do this on the first try and do you know why? Because it is as smart as you and I.
    When it figures that out it will get to room 2. In room 2 it will have to build something more advanced. I thought first of a electro-magnet so that it could shoot a hole in the wall. But that might harm the lifeform when it is a robot so i will have to change room 2.
    In conclusion, it is as smart as a human. my algorithm is universal so it would solve almost any problem.
    Don't believe me? Nah, i am used to that. However if you are interested then mail me at da_rikard@hotmail.com and ill tell you more.
  10. Persol I am the great and mighty Zo. Registered Senior Member

    We may be hijacking this thread... but I think Stryder can split it if he feels that is so.

    Ok... you are skipping some steps. Basically you are saying:
    1) I will build a robot
    2) I will write a program
    3) The program will have human intelligence

    Could you please explain what is involved in step 2. I eat up anything having to do with AI research and have written a few programs involving it (mostly parsers, NLP, and non-recurssive path-finding).

    I'd bve interested to see how you plan to implement human intelligence in a computer, when we don't know what human intelligence actually is.
  11. malkiri Registered Senior Member

    To use the field's terminology, you're talking about 'strong AI' and 'weak AI.' Strong AI is an AI that can reason and think for itself, and is very likely sentient. Weak AI is what we have had to date, where the AI can only act as if it's intelligent by emulating human behavior.

    I don't mean to be overly harsh, but I'll believe this magical artificial life form when I see it. For one thing, I see a large problem here:
    On the first try? It must be pure chance if it has no knowledge. The only reason you or I would try to use the key in the lock is because we've been trained to use keys in this manner.
    Or do you mean that you'll give it a key, point it at the door, and tell it to figure out how to use the key on that door? That sounds like knowledge to me.

    Regardless of how long you've been programming, there are many things you either cannot do in VB, or take quite a bit more effort to accomplish than it would with another more powerful language. VB has its place, and that place is on the Windows desktop.

    That's quite a strong statement. I get the sense that your concept is still in the idea stage and you haven't produced anything yet. I would be very intested to hear if anything develops once you get it to a working stage, as I think you'll probably run into some problems that you're not expecting. I'm not trying to discourage you, I'm just trying to point out that you're probably in for more hurdles than you think.
  12. Baal Zebul Somewhat Registered User Registered Senior Member

    well actually we have been doing this for almost a year now so we are in the developing stage but you are right, i have improved the AI on the path.

    We do not need super-computers to develop our AI, nor do we need the extra power that C++ could give us so id rather use the language that i find the simplest.

    No, i will not give it a key and point at the door but it will have the ability to interact. Please note that i do not have to tell it anything about its world only that if i do not then it will be next to impossible to read the output.
    It cannot see color, shape. It only sees text and even that is not neccesary. Can it be integrated in the real world? Yes, but it requires some of the most advanced robotic eyes for that.
    All that it really needs to get as an input from the SC-11 simulation is to know when a state changes. Etc, when a door is unlocked instead of locked. Just things that will be able to detect.
    I don't want to say much about the AI and I do not want people to believe me, actually i want to prove people wrong but the truth is that ill need someone more with lots of time who is a grand VB.net/C# programmer. The others do not have much time so ill need one more atleast. Mail me and i shall tell thee more.
  13. mouse can't sing, can't dance Registered Senior Member

    Not knowing what to implement, is not a fatal problem if you do know what it should mimmick, e.g. a human. The Turing test circumvents our inability to accurately define intelligence with a comparison on a feature of intelligence (to fool around a questioner) between humans and software.

    Baal Zebul,
    Why? How is the readability of the output related to its initial knowledge of the world?

    So what state changes do you envision? How do you describe them? How is your artificial life form able to interact? Does it have the ability to actively change states? If so, should i see it as a MUD like command language (e.g. "use key on door" type of commands)?

    Well, if you want people to get enthousiastic about your project, you at least need to be able to draw a general outline of how your concept works. As Persol and Malkiri illustrated, there are some serious issues you have left unaddressed in your explanations. Without addressing them properly, I can imagine that it will be quite difficult to inspire talented programmers to spend time on a project lacking a concrete basis.
  14. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

    Baal Zebul, I would suggest a cheaper alternative to Robotics, Try using VR. (Virtual Reality) this way you can generate objects that you interact with at the same level as the intelligence your trying to create.

    You could create and name an object a chair, and the Intelligence would then decide what it should remember as a chair, but do note with human intelligence a definition of chair would have to be repeated many times to ascertain what a chair actually is. In fact occasionally our primitive development when that young would cause other things to be refered to as chair.

    (Like parents teaching a baby how to differenciate, where a mother is with the baby more often and the irony of the first word it knows being "Daddy".)
  15. leda Registered Senior Member

    Baal, perhaps you should contact Jim Wightman, who I believe has beaten you to solving the AI problem with his nannybots.
    Or perhaps you ARE Jim Wightman.
  16. Baal Zebul Somewhat Registered User Registered Senior Member


    Stryder gets it but not you. He said the thing about calling the chair a chair. Well that is all i tell it in SC-11 (even though it does not even have to know that). But what is easiest to understand when reviewing the output, That it says "Key" or "2a42hi412sd" or some other randomly self-created "word"?

    Yes, you should. Somewhat like that. Let me ask you, how do you know that you have opened a door? Maybe you have experience or may be you are lucky. Maybe you see that the lock has moved or maybe you hear the click. There are tons of status changes. However my AI only needs the status changes when it has no information and i have designed SC-11 accordingly were it survives with the absolute minimum of information.

    You know, i have been to a lots of places. I in all of those places used a technic that i learned from when trying to rally artists for my game developing crew. What i do is that i tell everybody that i am better than them (in some way) and the result are (from the noobs) that they call me insane or a liar whilst the professional contact me, join me and work till they have proved that they are better than me.
    You might want to remember this for future reference. But ill not do that here at SciForums because people here answer posts so quickly and most of the time have something intelligent to say that id not want to risk my "future" in this forum.

    And Stryder when it comes to VR, well just say that i have an other invetion there which is lets say 5 years before its time. We plan on selling that too but the cost is somewhat large. We were first to build The Republic but that was obsolete when i thought a lil more about it. Then came The Republic 2 (TR2), a good idea since we would start them with no knowledge as in SC-11 but there were too few dead ends in TR2 so i dropped it rather than modifiying it. SC-11 was the next step, (we have changed it now thanks to a "friend" of mine) and it will be put in a maze with no knowledge (sort of like a RPG game) where it tries to get from point A to point B and along the maze there are obsticles such as the door issue.

    Yes, that is what i plan on doing and have done already but thanks for saying "but do note with human intelligence a definition of chair would have to be repeated many times to ascertain what a chair actually is. In fact occasionally our primitive development when that young would cause other things to be refered to as chair." I had not thought of having empirc data for objects also (yet), thank you indeed.
  17. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

    I would suggest using www.sourceforge.net as a place to launch a project, since it would give you enough space and a website to allow you to generate a Project Goal and statement that people can refer to.
  18. leda Registered Senior Member

    Since you are claiming to be so many years (I would estimate over 50) in advance of the bleeding edge of technology, could you please give us some additional details.

    What architecture for learning language are you implementing in your A.I. construct?
    If it has no language, how does it reason?
    How does it solve implicatures, i.e. I know X, I know Y, therefore I infer Z.
    Does your construct have access to any external ontologies/dictionaries/corpus?
    What are its sensory abilities, its inputs?
    What problem solving algorithms does it implement?
    How are you planning on translating its output?
    How are you planning on representing objects?
    How are you planning on resolving abiguity between different senses of a given concept? (example: he knocked on the door, versus he walked through the door)
    What data structures does it use to hold knowledge?
    Is it evolving?
    Does it use rules, finite state machines, ATMs?
    Give us a clue!

    If you do not give more details, you cannot blame people for assuming that you are an inventor only of wild ideas. I work on a tiny corner of the A.I. problem, a subset of a subset. My belief (and a well-founded one) is that A.I. is a huge unsolved area of study; a problem to be chipped away at, not solved in one great leap.
  19. mouse can't sing, can't dance Registered Senior Member

    Fine, what process would get your AI decide to produce a random string for something? Does it make an inventory of all that it "sees" in its virtual world, and attach labels to it if not done by you already? Which brings me to another question, does your system take into account a line-of-sight, does it register objects hidden behind a wall?

    We humans have figured out which status changes are important, and which we can filter out. That took time to learn, and moreover, we have a mechanism enabling us to learn in the first place. What mechanism do you envision for your system to know what status changes are relevant to complete its goals and which can be disregarded?

    What do you define with this information? Is it its goal list, its task list, its list of objects it can "see", a list of previous status changes, or a combination of these?

    How do you qualify a minimum of information? Do you mean that if you tell it that there is a room, a door, a key and that its sole purpose in life is to get through the door, that this is the minimum information needed for it to succeed? If so, how does it know that a room consists of walls, a floor and a roof? Does it have access to a dictionary defining a room as such? And what about the definition of a door, a wall, a floor and a roof? How does it know that it can not move through walls, floors, roofs, closed doors? Does it just try to move through one of these and remembers the failure of doing so? If so, how does it generalize from one wall to another? Does it assume that if a certain action fails on a object of a certain class, that it will fail on every other object of that class? If so, how do you account for exceptions and dependencies. If it discovers that a key can be used to open a door, it could incorrectly conclude that every key can open all doors. What mechanism is built in to counter or refine previously made assumptions?
  20. malkiri Registered Senior Member

    Dropping names and acronyms out of context doesn't make your project sound better. Please, at least explain what "The Republic" and "SC-11" are if you're going to refer to them.

    Another problem with claiming your AI is as intelligent as a human is that you're interpreting the input and output on its behalf. This:

    You're in a room.
    There's a door here.
    There's a key on the floor.

    is not the same as sitting a robot with sensors of some sort in an empty room with a door and a key. I'll even assume it can identify the key and door, which is not a trivial problem. There's a large difference between your AI replying "use key in keyhole in door" and having the AI-in-robot pick up the key, put it in the keyhole, and turning it.

    Lastly...if you're willing to divulge details to people if they email you, why are you reluctant to post more of them here?
  21. Baal Zebul Somewhat Registered User Registered Senior Member

    Forgive me for being so breif about my AI, i am highly paranoid and since i do not want any competition i try not to explain much about it. I barely trust PGP to share my ideas.


    Perhaps, but i already have lots of other places where i can upload my website. It is not complete yet but ill look into using sourceforge.

    Who said that it does not use language?
    It uses the CES language, which is similar to english with some grammar modifications, i believe that i have already said that.

    From NN i have created sort of a mixture between Trail and Error and Back-Propagating systems. (Back-Propagating might be a little clue, Just a hint)

    In the real world it would have eyes that can see 3D, they should be able to make a 3D view of an object and apply a texture to it. (This would allow it recognize ojects even if it only has seen bits of it) It would also be able to zoom in and out. This is the minimum but in military application it would of course also have night and heat vision and it would probably be able to detect hidden weapons and see through walls too.
    In the digital world it does not have to see more than text, however in order to create more advanced simulations one might give the abbility to see color and shape.
    I do not have to translate the output. I do not have to translate the input.

    This is the best i can say, it is pattern recognition on multiple levels but structured as neural nets, using a mixture between Trial and Error and Back-Propagating systems, this gives a what you would get out of Genetic Algorithms and Expert Systems. It creates its own natural language based on interaction and knowledge. In short, it is human or next to human.
    (I can only put it in the previous AI terminology cause then people cannot understand how it works fully.)


    Yes, almost like that.
    Inh military application it might be able to see through walls but that is not standard. However it will always try to examine the objects more and more.

    Well, what is important? If you only will open doors then you dont have to know much. However if you are to repair door then you might need to know more, right?

    A combination and a little more to it.

    Well, it will not know that there is a roof since the roof in no way could affect the simulation. It will have no dictonary, it will create a dictionary.
    Yes, you are right. It can think that a key can open a door when the truth is that that key just openes one door. That is proved with empirical data, so if it solves the problem once and fails two times then it has learned that that key just worked for that particullar door. It could also think that the empirical data proves that the key can not open any more doors but that will not happened since it has worked once, so it will know that that key will work on that door.


    Sure, this is a copy from our website. I have not fully completed the SC-11 part yet but i guess that does not mean anything to you any way.

    "The Republic (TR)

    The Republic is a simulation of a medieval society with 19 inhabitants, all with their specific capabilities and their tasks. The idea with the republic was to show the adaptability of the CES AI in order to prove not just its human like intelligence but also show that it was as grand at adapting to harsh environments as bacteria.

    What really failed the Republic was that it was created in order to make sure that if one inhabitant failed then the whole society would fail within a short time if it could not adapt. However, The Republic was too pre-programmed in the sense that it was created within boundaries that always would give a positive result.

    The Republic 2 (TR2)

    In order to achieve more human results with a higher error percentage it was decided to create the Republic 2, a world with 3 individuals, Adam, Eve and Jesus.

    Adam was the father, the strong man suited for physical activities such as cutting wood and hunting whilst Eve had the capabilities of foraging and cooking. Since the idea with the Republic 2 was that they should be started up with no knowledge what the CES team wanted out of TR2 was for Adam and Eve to solve all problems in the world and then teach baby Jesus all the knowledge they had so that the society could go on. The disadvantage once again was that the Republic 2 was too limited, too little dead ends that the AI would try to solve before deciding to move on to the next problem. A slight modification in the world we built for the ALF's could correct that mistake but the glitch was too excessive since the amount of data it required was overlooked. The amount of data that TR2 would require was comprehensible to some of the most advanced AGI creations and by doing so the CES Project had failed in their beliefs.


    When the TR2 simulation was obsolete SC-11 was the next concept that would be undertaken rather than continuing the trend of creating a better and more advanced republic simulation.

    There are no disadvantages to the SC-11 simulation except perhaps that it cannot simulate every problem that might occur in the real world. "

    Why not? The robot will reason in the same manner as the simulated robot. Turning is an action and instead of sending the output to a human viewed text it just sends it to the parts in its body that are affected in the Turn command.
    Key and Door are merely object (no matter what they are called), they just give X, Y and Z cordinates for the robot to use when calibrating its Turn command.

    This will probably sound even worse but i do not care, being on the safe side is always better.
  22. malkiri Registered Senior Member

    Your system can consistently identify arbitrary objects from an arbitrary viewpoint, particularly from a view of only a portion of the objects?

    As I mentioned in my last post, you are translating both the input and output when you run the AI in a text simulation.

    Are you saying that your AI doesn't need to discard apparently irrelevant information as it might be useful later? This misses the point of what mouse was saying. I hear keys tapping from other cubicles while I sit at my desk all day long. I don't remove this fact from my knowledge base. However, I also don't react to it - I simply ignore it. I think the question was more along these lines - how will your system know which environmental changes to ignore?

    Because it needs to know which parts of its body to move and how to move them. Since the robot is given no knowledge ahead of time, this means it not only has to figure out that putting the key in the door, turning it, and opening it will bring it closer to its goal, but it also has to figure out how to reach down, pick up the key, move to the door, put the key in the keyhole, turn the key, grasp the doorknob, and open the door. All this information is not required when the AI will simply output "get key," "open door with key."
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2004
  23. leda Registered Senior Member

    I did not say it didn't use language. I only said, if it does, what mechanisms does it have for learning it? Do you use the 'principles and parameters' approach to language learning, are you a connectionist, a lexical functionalist? What type of grammar are you using?
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