US's economy has fully recovered?

That's fine. Just be aware that if you talk to anyone else about it you will confuse them, since no one in the EV or battery field uses that term.

 

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I think you must be mistaken. "Electrode polarization" does not exist. What do you think it consists of? Especially explain why the metal electrode polarization voltage drop is a function current? What in the metal electrodes changes to make a cold battery perform badly?

It may well be true that EV users have little accurate understanding of how their batteries work. Read my post 220 - that tells how and ONLY when polarization is understood to be a ion density gradient in the ELECTROLYTE.

 

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Do you work in the EV or battery industries?

 

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No, but here is how NASA speaks of polarization (and the IR drop of current passing thur a liquid conductor):

Not a word about “electrode polarization.” Polarization they say is AN ION CONCENTRATION effect. more specifically as I described the fact that ion concentration or ion densities are lowered near the electrodes.

Also, for good reason, I see you are ignoring the three (unanswerable) questions I asked in post 222.

 

Ah, that explains it.

What the heck are you talking about?

>What do you think it consists of?

Polarization refers to the difference in polarity between the cathode and anode.

>Especially explain why the metal electrode polarization voltage drop is a function current?

What is a function current?

>What in the metal electrodes changes to make a cold battery perform badly?

?? The metal electrodes don't change; the reaction rates and charge-carrier mobility rates change.

 

on (1): no that is the terminal voltage.
on (2): The polarization is a function of current. The "activation polarization" NASA spoke of is not - it is more like the ionization energy required to remove an electron from a neutral. (Ions are formed from neutrals in the electrolyte as they are destroyed at the electrodes - i.e. made back into neutrals.) The ionic concentration polarization NASA spoke of or "concentration gradient layer" near the electrodes and the electric field that gives a bias to the diffusion motion of the ions both increase with current. I.e. to get more ionic flow (which is what the current inside the battery is) that electric field must increase - must have greater internal voltage difference in the electrolyte near the electrodes or the polarization of and in the electrolyte must increase.
on (3): There is a change on the electrode surface that has somewhat the same effect as polarization, which is best considered to be a form of "electrode masking or poisoning" depending upon whether or not it is temporary or permanent. The temporary one is typically the formation of microscopic bubbles, usually of H2, if H+ ions are being neutralized at the electordes. Chemicals can be added to the electrolyte to facilitate the oxidation of those H2 bubbles to H2O, but while they exist, the effective conduction surface of the electrode is reduced (or at constant current the current density is increased). The permanent poisoning is typically the formation, often of a sulphur compound, that can not be reduced. This is mainly a problem in air-metal batteries when operating in air with SO2 or SO3 content.

 

Quite often experts working for years in a field have little fundamental understanding of what the processes are - For that you need a physicist, usually. For example for almost 100 years there was accepted the Phlogyston theory of heat. Physicist Joule was placed in charge of a cannon factory. He understood (as did the workers) that to keep the cutting tool cool, water was periodically poured into the bore hole, but he understood more fundamentally what was happening - the water was evaporating but how? Where was the phylogyston coming from to heat it? He realized, for the first time, that work could be converted into heat. (4.186 calories per joule, if memory serves me correctly.) The conservation of phylogyston theory was destroyed, not by the many experienced workers, but by a physicist who understood better than they what the fundamental processes were. (Sorry but think I have phylogyston spelled incorrectly - correct spelling was not a requirement of my physic Ph.D. Deeply understanding many physical processes was.)

BTW, many at NASA are physicists, so it is to be expected they understand the fundamentals of batteries better than EV workers or sales men or workers at the battery factory. Yes, me not being one of them, but a Ph.D. physicist, DOES explain why I understand batteries better than most working there do.

 

Actually, electrochemistry is the field you are thinking of. Chemists are the experts there.

No, battery experts understand batteries better than your typical NASA worker. I work with a fair number of people who once worked for NASA and not one of them is a battery experts. OTOH, the chemists at A123 or Sanyo DO know a lot about electrochemistry.

I don't even know what your point is any more.

 

It is simple:
Polarization is the relatively narrow zone with less ion density or concentration than in the main volume of the electrolyte. - I.e. an ion concentration gradient in the electrolyte near the electrodes due to ions being removed (neutralized) at the electrodes.

In this relatively narrow polarization zone, there is an electric field than causes the velocity distribution of ions to have an average drift towards the electrode (or away from it for the oppositely charged ions - both ion concentration are lower in the polarization zone, preserving net charge neutrality). That is there is a bias in the otherwise random diffusion motion of the ions. Because there is an electric field driving the ions in the electrolyte near the electrode towards the electrode (when an external current exists) there is a potential difference between the electrode surface and the bulk of the electrolyte a few mm away from the electrode surface. (The polarization potential) Two points with an electric field between ALWAYS are at different voltages.*

SUMMARY: Polarization is NOT some changed property of the metal electrodes. It is a ion concentration gradient, (with and due to the electric field in the near electrode polarization zone of the electrolyte.)

Not that it is relevant to the discussion of "polarization" but only to help you (if needed) and others, I will discuss the relationship between fields and potentials:

* Actually that is the way both electric and gravitational potentials are defined. Some arbitrarily chosen point is said to be at "zero potential" and then the potential at all other points is defined by the work required to move a "unit charge" or "unit mass" (in the system of units being used) from that zero potential point. For example in batteries the zero potential point is usual taken to be the more negative of the two electrodes so that the potential of the other electrode is a positive number.

For use on the earth, the zero of gravitation potential is usually defined to be the surface of the local ground. However, for astronomical considerations the zero potential is usually taken to be space very distant from the sun. (This is because then the potential at points closer to the sun is the simple expression: -1/r (if we neglect the gravitational fields of the planets) where r is the distance from the sun and all such points have a negative potential - are bound to the sun and require at least than much work done to move a unit of mass there distant from the sun.

Unlike potentials, the value of which depends upon an arbitrary choice of the zero potential point, electric and gravitational fields are not arbitrary. Their strength can be directly measured. One can not measure the potential at a point as it is arbitrary -only potential differences between two points can be measured.

Summary: The field is the real measurable thing, not an arbitrary thing. The potential is derived from it by the work done / required to move a unit of charge or mass from the arbitrarily chosen zero potential point. The potential of a point can not be measured. Only the potential differences between two points can be measured.

Note the unit of mass is usually the Kg, (except in the crazy English system of units). The unit of charge is usually the coulomb, (potential then in volts, with "work done" in Joules) but for atomic work, the unit of charge is the much smaller charge on a proton (or electron) and the potential is then in eV. For example an electron bound to a proton (hydrogen atom) has a potential of -13.6eV (As in the astronomical case, the zero of potential has been defined with the electron very far from the proton.)

PS I have explained most of the above several times. It is time to end this detour. I will not discuss polarization more. I will, however just note in closing that polarization, diffusion, concentration gradients, potentials, electric fields, etc. are in the realm of physics. There is no electro-chemistry in the polarization zone. That takes place at the electrode surface.

 

More showing sick economy:

It is still rising, ever more rapidly, but graph showing this will not copy for positing.
Possibly some of the 77% of total new jobs created in first half of 2013, permit living at home more than a full time job would. (waitress only for peak load dinner time, etc.)

 

CNN Money says 2014: When the economy finally takes off

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What's the evidence?
1) Hike taxes and cut some government services (that's an interesting combination).
2) House prices are finally inflating high enough to be out of the reach of middle America (along with energy, tuition, medical bills, food, etc...)
3) GDP growth will magically hit 4%
4) We'll be magically creating around 300,000 good high paying jobs per month (WWIII?)
5) We'll magically have very low interest rates
6) Unemployment will magically fall below 5%
7) Rainbow colored lasers will shoot from unicorn anuses across the "Nation" finally ushering in "The Great Recovery"
(this last point is really important, and look, there's a unicorn hiding just behind that tree*).

Then, finally after 7 years, we can erect a big marble statue of a Helicopter with Benny Boy tossing money out the side with the plaque reading "Do enjoy the New Economy".


*Yes, this was the actual picture from CNN Money.

 

Translation: The deficit is under control and is now in line with historic averages.

Translation: Homeowners have more money to spend. People are wealthier. And that is good for the economy.

This is a funny claim coming from you, when every one of your economic prescriptions ends with an implied “and then magic happens”. The fact is no magic is needed for the GDP projections, it is all a matter of economics. Just because you don’t understand economics, it doesn’t mean it is magic.

Again, no magic is needed Michael.

We already have very low interest rates, again unlike your ideology; no magic is needed or wanted. It is all a matter of science.

If employment goes below 5% it will not be a good thing, it will be a bad thing as it could constrain economic growth. Employers need a base of available employees to hire. It’s that economics thing again. But unemployment should be lower next year for all the reasons cited in the article and there will be a lot of hiring in the healthcare industry next year due to Obamacare.

Just because you don’t understand economics Michael, it doesn’t make it any less real.

 

It was descriptive comments like this that created that impression:

 

Let me make sure I have your reasoning correct. Artificially driving the price of houses up, put's 'money' in the hand of the owner.

Do explain.

In a society with the ability to create fiat currency, what's the purpose of savings?

Go on, you know it all. Do tell.

So? What is your solution Joe? Given you're happy to have the 'Patroit Act', the TSA, the NSA spying as permanent features of life in the "free" USA, I'm curious as to how you want the State to respond to the above scenarios.

 

What is artificial about home prices? Home prices are the prices which sellers are willing to sell and buyers are willing to buy. Is there something artificial about home sellers and home buyers?

The purpose of savings is the same as it has always been, to save money. It has nothing to do with “fiat currency” or anything else you might imagine.

Well there first needs to be something to respond to. I don’t see anything wrong with our policing agencies. I think they do a pretty good job. So why fix something that is not broken. And if you read my posts over the years, you would know that I was never a supporter of the Patriot Act. But it is the law of the land, and I feel much better about it given the changes implemented by the Obama administration to make it legal. Further, as previously pointed out to you, it is not just the government which collects information about you. Your grocer tracks your purchases. Phone companies track your phone calls. And internet companies like Google and Yahoo track your online activity. It’s a byproduct of the information age in which we live. If you don’t like it, I guess you can give up the internet and live in some cave or remote log cabin in the wilds of Alaska or some similar place and live off the grid. But you seem to like living on the grid.

 

The Federal Reserve has the stated goal of holding DOWN interest rates. The is, by definition, "artificial". It means that without interference the free market would have a higher interest rate.

I'm still waiting for your answer. How does increasing the price of a person's home give them ""money" to spend if they don't sell their house?

 

LOL circular argument much?

So? You don't understand the importance of capital savings in Capitalism?


What value does personal savings have to a Bank that can borrow money at low to near zero interest rates from the Federal Reserve? Is a person's savings of any economic value?

 

So you support deploying the TSA at shopping malls, high schools, sporting events, trains, busses, subways, all these other areas that could be bombed? Is that your position?

Oh it's good to see you are at least consistant in your support of Legal NSA spying and "Obama's" Legal use of the Patroit Act.

 

Joe,

Is War with Syria good for the US economy? Paul Krugman says it is. Do you agree with him?

 

What the Fed is doing is buying debt. So you think buying debt is artificial? Banks and investors do it all the time. There is nothing artificial about the Fed purchasing debt. The Fed makes its purchases on the free and open markets. The Fed is acting like any other purchaser in a free market. That is the free market at work. If any major market purchaser decided to purchase less debt interest rates might be higher. Does that make the private debt buyer’s purchases artificial too?

Well first we had to get past the fact that your premise about higher home prices was based on a false premise and you are changing your question. Higher home prices provide homeowners more money when they sell their homes and it allows them to use their equity to secure additional loans. And it makes people feel a bit wealthier with the knowledge that they have some equity in their homes.