USA and UK Tortures Too!

Discussion in 'Politics' started by duendy, Mar 3, 2005.

  1. duendy Registered Senior Member

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    6,585
    This last week on our TV has been a series of documentaries documenting the use of turture on innocent people and prison inmates by USA and UK authorities

    So for all you dreamers imagining that good ole USa is trying to spread good old homemade democracy to the evil world, think again
    I cant show you the hoorrs i've seen--ie., transmit the images but you can get a bit of an overview here www.channel4.com/torture

    for example, USA abduct people with brown skin going on innocent business trips, be cause they may have an aquantence who knows someone who knows an Islamic activist. Form there the abuductees are not allowed to make ANY phonecalls, and have a lawyer, and are then maincled and tortured, for days and weeks, etc

    Also they hand over 'suspects' to countries that are well known for extreme forms of torture, and then get any information (which is agreed is bogus. that people will say anything when suffering torture) for them selves, yet DENY their involvement with the whole sorry process.....

    In your prisons very fat ugly prison wardens regularly beat up prisoners seriously. and get away with murder, and have weapens that shoot extremely toxic pepper spray at prisoners. You should see what it does to the skin. it ilooks like mangled raw meat

    we say fottage of you young boy of about 19 in a cell, and the ugly evil fat screw spray him through the door vent, then the boy is in agony with his eyes

    So. you DO this, and yeyt you right wingers who love Bush (not that the rest of the suits are any good) pretend that you are the 'good guys'?? please explain. do you agree with torture or not? please elaborate
     
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  3. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    It's a fine line between torture and duress. Torture is a pointless information gathering technique, but duress is decent for getting information. Making someone uncomfortable is probably an acceptable practice, but when does it become torture?

    Stress positions and verbal abuse... is that torture? Unless they are profuse, I'd say no.

    Torture however, is not acceptable practice... though it's bound to happen because there are bastards in the world. That doesn't make Bush a bastard or America "the bad guys". There are bad guys in every group of people calling themselves good.
     
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  5. duendy Registered Senior Member

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    oh dear....rationalizing and explaining it all away as usual. call it 'duress' and you can sleep at night...?
    maybe ?YOU should have a taste of your 'duress' and see how you like it. what do you say?
     
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  7. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    I say you're a dumbass who refuses to engage the issue intellectually. You put shit up like you want to have an intelligent conversation, then resort to a completely unintelligent accusational tone when there's a response you don't like. I'll stop responding to questions you pose, as obviously you're not interested in discussing anything. You simply want to point the finger and say "that's bad!". Why the fuck do you post then? You're just looking to yuck it up with your hater buddies?
     
  8. kenworth dude...**** it,lets go bowling Registered Senior Member

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    for the sake of arguement.you are a police officer and you are holding someone you know has information about a bomb that is going to go off in less then an hour in a shopping centre,is his discomfort worth it to find out where that bomb is?i know its a fairly unlikely situation and perhaps a stupid example,but i i dont think this arguement is as clear cut as you would like to think.obviously holding someone for 3 years without charge is inexusable,but you should try to look at this from different angles.
     
  9. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    How the fuck do you know what's usual? You asked for discussion of the issue, so isn't explaining it par for the conversation? Who "explained it away"? The thing is that there are bastards out there on either "team". How you gonna stop that? You think you can change it? Please bang your worthless fucking skull against that brick wall for the rest of your life. You'll spend it confused wondering "why won't people just do what I say?". Good luck.

    No, because there's a difference between duress and torture. That's why they are different words. Dumbass.

    Maybe you're retarded.

    I wouldn't like it, that's the fucking point you moron.

    I say you're really not very bright, yet are arrogant enough to think that everyone should do what you think is right.
     
  10. duendy Registered Senior Member

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    o god this is despairing.
    look, have you looked at the website info?

    you admit you haven't even SEEN the documentary?

    yet here you are alREADY justifying TORTURE>>>!!!!!!!!!

    see it! see what you R doing!

    even if we take your ad hoc implausible dramtic apoligetic cal justification for T O R T URE. yes torture on another human being, it doesn't hold up. for the obvous reason--which i explained in the beginning and is well-known, and anyone who is human and familiar with pain would intuit. confession BY torture is NOT reliable

    think about it. imAGINE. yo are being tortured. severe pain. over and over. you dont kow where the next pain's coming from. wouldn't you say ANYthing to stop that pain

    please dont give me a silly answer back!
     
  11. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    As I said before, torture is pointless and unnacceptable. Those who do it should be punished and not permitted to do it anymore. They shouldn't have the power to do it. You can't necessarily keep them from doing it in the first place is the point. It would be nice, but sadistic bastards do as sadistic bastards do because they're sadistic bastards. All you can do is try to identify them for what they are and try to minimize the damage they can do.


    You apparently aren't awake enough to delineate a difference between condoning torture and condoning making someone uncomfortable.


    Please show how you think I've "justified torture".
     
  12. Thersites Registered Senior Member

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    How do you know all this?
    It is much more likely that you will have inaccurate information, torture the wrong man, and both neother save the people you want to save and alienate people too.
    Torture works very well as a way of getting information. It caught millions of saboteurs in Stalin's Soviet Union; an astonishing feat as it was incompetence and bad administration that caused most of the damage. As a way of getting reliable information it is useless. Other methods- bribery, ideological dissuasion, decent treatment- work much better. Torture has unpleasant side-effects: the people who apply it acquire a taste for torture and begin to use it as a hobby outside work as well as professionally. They find it gets quick results and- because it blunts their consciences- they are indifferent as to whether the results they get are the right results. It also affects the people who receive it: if they are opponents of the torturers already they are confirmed in their hatred; if they are not they are made into enemies. This does not apply only to full-scale torture- casual brutality, "stress" and mistreatment of any kind affects people, their family, their friends and creates more people who are indifferent or opposed.
     
  13. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    The USA certainly does torture and outsource torture to countries like Syria and Egypt.

    I wasn't aware of torture going on on prisons, but I can't say I'm too surprised. Isn't prison punishment enough? It's very scary when the police feel they can justify violence and intimidation. I'm not willing to give them that power. It's arbitrary, not decided by a judge or jury, subject to the whims of people already volnerable to the intoxication of power. I'm sure if the wes were under "duress" he wouldn't be too happy about it, and would probably think about sueing someone.

    The bastard is the Bush administration, particularly Rumsfeld, Gonzoles, and Bush, who are responsible for deliberately creating a climate in which torture is allowed. America isn't "the bad guys", unless we do nothing about it, but the present administration certainly are very bad, amoral people. They put up a front of morality, but their actions are completely different.
     
  14. kenworth dude...**** it,lets go bowling Registered Senior Member

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    it was a hypothetical but if you want details,they found bomb making equipment in his house and a plan of a shopping centre and a note saying "im gonna bomb that shopping centre good".i didnt say it was a good thing at all,and i dont think i would be comfortable doing it but i can see extenuating circumstances under which someone would deem it necessary.
     
  15. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    Hell, no. Torture is never the right thing for the United States Government or it's representatives to do. The whole point of anti-torture laws, particularly during wartime, is that in extreme circumstances, when people are all hyped up, it is all the more tempting to torture someone. When there is nothing important at stake, the danger of engaging in this reprehensable act is slight.
     
  16. Undecided Banned Banned

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    It's a fine line between torture and duress. Torture is a pointless information gathering technique, but duress is decent for getting information

    And there's a fine line btwn a idiot, and a retard and you've passed that line.

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    Explain?
     
  17. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    That's torture, duh - moron.
     
  18. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    All prisoners should be treated humanely. While they are in your custody, they can no longer do harm. This policy helps you avoid having to kill people, you want to give your enemy an alternative to fighting, not force them to fight to the death, as they would if they thought they would be humiliated or worse if captured.
     
  19. Clockwood You Forgot Poland Registered Senior Member

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    The enemy is going to demonize the hell out of us anyway so they will still fight to the death. People think that Americans get their unholy power through satanic rituals involving newborn infants dipped in crude oil. Its perception that makes the difference, not truth.
     
  20. Undecided Banned Banned

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    Wesmorris:

    I love this, the irrational rationale for why torture is good and bad at the same time, you are sounding so schizoid here it raises many questions about your mental health (and to this I am not joking). Firstly u say that torture is not acceptable, yet it is bound to happen and because its “bound to happen” its ok, and Bush cannot be blamed for it. So then didn’t u just justify Osama as well here? I mean he isn’t there chopping off people’s heads, and since chopping off heads is wrong it is ok because it is bound to happen to those “bastards” in the world, (who would be westerners) its pretty damned obvious you have no idea about ethical theory, because if your going to spew idiocy at least make it into a universal maxim reject.

    That's torture, duh – moron

    So then why did the US do it? No reason according to your schizoid logic, yet at the same time according to your logic because it is bound to happen? Sorry but this has to be the MOST IDIOTIC thing I’ve heard come from your mouth in a long time. The only moron here is you trying to justify American actions which are overtly wrong…I hope one day u’ll be that bastard…
     
  21. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    Luckily, I don't have to worry about your analysis of my mental state. It's not my fault you can't see clear, simple logic.

    I think torture is a bad idea because people will say whatever you want them to in order to make you stop torturing them - not to mention the cruelty. A little discomfort though and it's simply motivation. The difference is that you're not taking it to extremes, so the likelihood that they'll just make shit up is lower with simple discomfort as opposed to straight up torture. Someone who is uncomfortable is not necessarily desperate for their life. When someone gets into that mindset, they'll do anything to make it stop. That's unreliable information.

    I didn't justify anyone doing it. I just said it will happen because sadist assholes exist and seek positions that they'll get to fulfill their desires.

    How charming and educated of you. You're not too bright kid, that you cannot differentiate idiocy from coherence.

    Can you show me the US policy that endorses torture? Remember, every side that claims to be 'good' has at least some bad people. I understand that asking you to comprehend that is probably asking too much.

    Yes, reason. It could be any number of reasons, but it was certainly from someone who either wasn't intent on extracting good information, or didn't understand why torture is a bad idea. It was probably the former, as there are any number of sadistic fucks in any country... like for instance those head choppers... and the fucks at abu graib.

    You're not sorry, and you're very immature.

    Same to you little one.
     
  22. Undecided Banned Banned

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    Luckily, I don't have to worry about your analysis of my mental state. It's not my fault you can't see clear, simple logic.

    Sorry nothing you said was logically, its contradictory.

    I think torture is a bad idea because people will say whatever you want them to in order to make you stop torturing them - not to mention the cruelty. A little discomfort though and it's simply motivation.

    Then the US what it did was wrong to unknown number of men around the world?

    The difference is that you're not taking it to extremes, so the likelihood that they'll just make shit up is lower with simple discomfort as opposed to straight up torture.

    I don’t see the distinction torture starts when u lay a hand on someone, or deprive them of the basics of life.

    Someone who is uncomfortable is not necessarily desperate for their life.

    They don’t have too, they are being coerced against their will that is torture you are putting B.S qualifications that really don’t exist.

    I didn't justify anyone doing it. I just said it will happen because sadist assholes exist and seek positions that they'll get to fulfill their desires.

    And one of them who justified the torture is your attorney general…sick.

    How charming and educated of you. You're not too bright kid, that you cannot differentiate idiocy from coherence.

    Ever hear of Kant? Yes I am educated, and I show it. I don’t u to tell me differently.

    Can you show me the US policy that endorses torture? Remember, every side that claims to be 'good' has at least some bad people. I understand that asking you to comprehend that is probably asking too much.

    Talking shit is not going to get u anywhere, the memo from Gonzalez to Bush in which Bush endorsed is evidence enough.

    Yes, reason.

    Yes that means nothing…get an argument please.

    It could be any number of reasons, but it was certainly from someone who either wasn't intent on extracting good information, or didn't understand why torture is a bad idea.

    Well we know according to those who were there that military intelligence officers were directing the torture, so it must have been something important.

    It was probably the former, as there are any number of sadistic fucks in any country... like for instance those head choppers... and the fucks at abu graib.

    Too bad they were only following orders from the sadist fucks you elected. What ever happened to the “buck stops here?”

    You're not sorry, and you're very immature.

    I have no respect for you, so I could give less of a shit about your opinion.

    Same to you little one.

    I’m not American…chances are u’ll die before me.
     
  23. cato less hate, more science Registered Senior Member

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    my $.02: countries from which terrorists come are lucky we are as nice as we are. we could stop terrorism easily, just like the Nazis did. however, we are somehow supposed to stop terrorism without ever hurting an innocent person. It’s just ridiculous to think we can defend against something like that without innocent people being hurt. I think America is doing an ok job at it, not great mind you, but ok given the circumstances.
     

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