Discussion in 'History' started by Asguard, Jul 6, 2013.
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So what, there were no navies involved in WWII? I seem to recall something about Pearl Harbor and something about Nazi U Boats sinking allied shipping. And I seem to recall something about naval amphibious operations in France, Italy, North Africa and numerous invasions of Pacific islands during WWII.
No, the war was won by all the peoples of the allied nations. Armies and Navies don’t fight so well without food in their bellies or implements of war. WWII was won by the farmers who worked the fields to produce the food that fueled the soldiers and sailors and supported the civilian victims of warfare. The war was won by all the” Rosie the Riveters” who made the guns, ammunition, tanks, trucks, artillery, airplanes, and ships. The war was won with the participation of academia and the scientists who invented and designed implements of warfare. And the war was won by all the solider and sailors who participated in the war and their political leadership. The war was won by all. It was the result of everyone working together for a common cause.
i never said that.
for the US, the navy was essential for the war effort.
just like i said above.
i feel the war was won by the soldiers and field commanders.
of course they couldn't do it without procurement or logistics and that's where forrestal enters the picture.
forrestal made this possible.
yes and this stuff had to get to where it was needed when it is needed, again forrestal.
in my opiniuon the greatest person of WW2 was the one that came up with the plan that defeated the german wolf packs.
without a secure atlantic route the outcome of WW2 could have been very different.
Sailors are not soldiers, they are sailors.
places like okinawa and iwo jima proves that naval bombardment isn't as effective as it might appear.
the battles of the corral sea and midway wasn't naval at all, it was carrier based.
the sailors job is to protect the primary goal, the aircraft, the battleships, the marines (landing forces).
the job of the navy is to get the primary goal to its target.
LOL, uh no…Okinawa and Iwo Jima were quite successful naval invasions and the naval bombardment was state of the art. Two, so according to you those carrier task forces out there manned by sailors are not naval?
This may come as a surprise to you; naval war has changed dramatically over the years. Brass cannons were dumped in favor of WWII guns, torpedoes, depth charges and aircraft which were more effective and more powerful than brass cannons. During WWI and WWII aircraft were new to both the Army and the Navy and they have remained a significant part of naval power ever since. Of course we know that the Army no longer supports fixed wing aircraft. Just because the weapons change, it doesn’t follow that the navy is no longer the navy.
So you are wrong, the battles of the Corral Sea and Midway were naval battles. Carriers are ships that carry aircraft. That makes them naval. Just because naval technology and battle tactics change, it does not follow that they are no longer naval.
Well that is not true either. The primary job of the Navy during WWII was to protect American shipping interests and project US military force as needed around the globe. It sounds like you don’t know much about the Navy.
The Navy is a diversified military force. Marines are a part of the Navy. Marines have since their creation have sailed on US naval vessels. That is what they were created to do. Marines were and remain an integral and important part of naval our combat forces. Sailors throughout history have always engaged in bombardment and hand to hand combat during times of war. And then of course you are forgetting entirely about submarines which are not designed or intended to deliver goods. Submarines are offensive weapons which during WWII were designed to sink enemy war and cargo ships.
The job of the sailor, the job of the Navy is to project US military force around the globe. One of the things that have always differentiated the Navy from other US combat forces is that the Navy is always forwardly deployed and mobile.
The mission of the navy is to maintain, train and equip combat-ready Naval forces capable of winning wars, deterring aggression and maintaining freedom of the seas.
—Mission statement of the United States Navy
From the New Recruits Handbook:
The mission of the United States Navy is to protect and defend the right of the United States and our allies to move freely on the oceans and to protect our country against her enemies.
The United States Navy is a seaborne branch of the military of the United States. 10 U.S.C. § 5062 prescribes the navy's three primary areas of responsibility:
"The preparation of naval forces necessary for the effective prosecution of war"
"The maintenance of naval aviation, including land-based naval aviation, air transport essential for naval operations and all air weapons and air techniques involved in the operations and activities of the Navy"
"The development of aircraft, weapons, tactics, technique, organization, and equipment of naval combat and service elements".
U.S. Navy training manuals state the mission of the U.S armed forces is "to prepare and conduct prompt and sustained combat operations in support of the national interest". As part of that establishment, the U.S. Navy's functions comprise sea control, power projection and nuclear deterrence, in addition to "sealift" duties.” - Wikipedia
Churchill said that, "Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few.", during his speech paying tribute to the Allied pilots that had turned back the mighty German Luftwaffe after the Battle of Britain, despite being outnumbered in planes over 5 to 1. The importance he gave to their efforts cannot be overstated because, should they have failed Britain would have been invaded and the war lost. Hilter would then have had control over the entire British Empire and all it's weaponry and resourses, this combined with might of the Nazi war machine would have made him unstoppable and likely, given he was insane enough, to conquer the whole world. Of all the battles in WW2 this was probarbly the single most significant.
the naval bombardment of iwo was almost 100% ineffective at neutralizing the enemy.
battleships, minesweepers, cruisers, these are the navy
carriers are maned by mechanics, pilots, and seamen.
it's the navys job to protect carriers and invasion fleets, and it's the reason for tasks forces.
yes, but we aren't talking about today, the subject is about WW2 and winston churchill.
actually they were air battles, both of them, corral sea and midway, but i guess they weren't. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
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Midway at least was listed as one of the most important naval battles, the fact that it also involved aircraft doesn't actually change the nature or type of battle, so I think he's right and you're wrong.
Grunts do the fighting. Officers and politicians tell them where to do it. Without Churchill, Roosevelt and Stalin working out the grand strategy at those conferences, World War Two would have been just a larger version of a Saturday night brawl at the roadhouse.
midway was an air battle.
"the navy" on neither side fired a shot at one another.
the battle was fought by aircraft.
the battle of midway was an air battle fought between carriers and their aircraft, there were however some land based planes from midway involved.
you can call it "naval" if you wish, the fact remains that it was fought by aircraft, not navy destroyers or land based artillery.
the same thing applies to the corral sea battle.
have you watched the movie "patton" ?
there are some historical truths to be learned from it.
Well where is your proof? U.S. Naval and the US Army Air Corps forces bombarded Iwo for 9 months prior to the invasion. So there wasn’t much left to bombard and as a result, the Japanese had 9 month to dig in and create a series of underground fortified positions to shield them from naval and air bombardment. U.S naval forces took the island by launching a Marine invasion.
So according to you US carriers not part of the Navy? Just who mans, supports and commands carriers? Who flies those airplanes on carriers if not the Navy? Basically you have no clue. By the way, they are now called battle groups and not taskforces.
Yes we are talking about WWII, but the point is you seem not to be able to recognize that naval warfare changes with the technology. During WWII the naval warfare changed. Battleships were on their way out of the fleet and carriers were on their way in. And the carrier replaced the battleship as the Navy’s premier warship.
Keep rolling your eyes, because they are clearly and universally recognized as naval battles. You already had a member proffer you proof of same.
I'd be cautious about getting "historical truths" from movies but feel free to enlighten us.
The truth about Patton is that a politician-soldier (Eisenhower) had to compromise between Patton and Montgomery to appease another polititian (Churchill).
That is good advice and very true Sideshowbob.
How could it be possible if war ships are being attacked for the battle not to be a naval battle? Also why do the history books cite Midway as one of the most important naval battles of WW2 if, as you keep claiming, it wasn't?
Ummm.... Leopold likes to feign ignorance. In fact, he's had so much practice at doing so that he now has a rightful claim to actual ignorance. It's a state of bliss that he maintains regarding many topics - get used to it....
what does "naval guns" mean to you?
the only "weapon" the carrier has is its aircraft and their armaments.
navy warships on the other hand has the long range artillery,
the battle of midway was fought between carriers and aircraft.
the primary purpose of the warship in both instances was to protect the carriers, NOT to engage the enemy.
the battle of midway WAS NOT fought between warships and their big guns, it was fought by carriers and their aircraft.
yes, midway was a decisive battle, japan never recovered from it.
corral sea was essentially the same scenario AKA the great mariannas turkey shoot.
the warships never fired a shot at one another, again it was fought by carriers and their aircraft.
anyone that reads an account of either midway or the corral sea will determine both were air battles fought with aircraft.
So all those Japanese warships weren't involved with that battle, eh? They must have sank accidentally some time later. And I guess all those American aircraft were destroyed by mechanical problems. Happens all the time; a B-26 will be flying along, and suddenly large holes will mysteriously appear in the wings and it crashes.
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