Uploading The Human Mind

Discussion in 'Intelligence & Machines' started by Catalyst, Sep 2, 2001.

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  1. Catalyst Registered Member

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    To upload our mind and awearness.
    To become one with your computer system.
    How many of us would truly go for this ?

    If you could upload your mind into computer hardware and become a being of pure electrons and electrical impulses. You could leave behind a body that is ageing even before you are born and become an immortal entity. You may not be who you were before you uploaded, but hay, maby you'de be something better.
    If you could go through the process and still maintain your own consciousness I for one would ask where to sign up.
     
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  3. kmguru Staff Member

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    If this is in response to growing old, there is a technology that is here that will solve that problem. It is by changing your body cells to immortal cells that can keep on going forever as long as you feed them.

    I do not mind living inside a computer like matrix style but if a rat chews the power plug, I am really dead, unless there is a back up file somewhere and a living person can upload it.
     
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  5. ltcmmdr Registered Senior Member

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    humand computers

    That's if we can figure out we can put our consiousness into the computer.
     
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  7. Catalyst Registered Member

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    Interesting idea kmguru

    A technology to change you cells into immortal copies ha ?
    I'm always open to new ideas. Got any more info on it ?
     
  8. LordManimal Registered Member

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    Hmmm....

    There was an interesting article about this in a Certification Magazine I read a few months back. It began with a couple sitting in Paris at a cafe having lunch. The woman is discussing her new apartment in Milan, and just general chatting between the two. Eventually, the subject came up of how the man was doing lately, seeing as how he wasn't discussing his job very much anymore, although a few months earlier, it was an all consuming part of his life.

    At that point, he asks her if she'd like to go that "special spot" of thiers and have a talk. The scene blurs, and they both appear at some mountain ridge in springtime, overlooking a valley, somewhere in Colorado. You then realise that they're in a program, visiting over the net, and that they're married, virtually. They've never physically been together, only having met eachother online, and falling in love and living their lives online, which is quite common at this point and time I gathered.

    He sits her down, and begins to tell he is not who she thinks he is. That her husband was killed in a car accident about 2 months ago, and that he was filling in to keep her from finding out. He was a last minute download of her husband. But he was not, in fact, her husband. He was an individual with all the life experiences of his carbon based counterpart, mentally exact until the moment of his creation when they began to have seperate existances and individual perceptions. His was of life on the net, her husbands of death in the real world. The woman was devestated, and sobbed into her virtual duplicate husband, and the story ends.

    What it brought up, was the question of weather or not it would ever be feasable to download yourself into another host, be it virtually, or physically. Even if there was a physical clone of yourself, and you were able to copy your brain into that duplicate, would it be you? Would you ever experience things though your copy's eyes? Would it ever experience though yours? Your feelings? Your sensations? Visa versa? Would you know what it thought? Would it know what you thought?

    I have thought about this quite a bit, and although it might be fun to create a virtual you, it brings up more moral delimmas than Issac Asivmovs' Bicentennial Man. If you consider the fact that a copy of yourself is exactly that; a copy, and not an extention of your own conciousness as many people believe it will be, I personally can't forsee any value in "copying" yourself to a hard drive. Perhaps for archival purposes, but only if that copy wasn't sentient. If that were the case, I can imagine no greater horror than existing as concious data, forever in solitary confinement, with none of the 5 senses that allow our brains to experience the world around us. Perhaps another sense would develop to replace those, but not before all sanity would be lost IMHO. I could not bring myself to torture another being that way, especially MYSELF, as eerie as that sounds. I could not stand it being done to me, and would not dream of doing it to another.

    Just my 2 cents!

    --LM
     
  9. kmguru Staff Member

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    2 cents well spent...LordManimal. What your story missed is that an exact replica is for practical puposes the same. So he would have behaves exactly the same. When you copy a software program, digital music or make duplicate pictures, does that diminish anything in any way except that it is a duplicate?

    Suppose we have the ability to store a persons entire molecular structure and have the ability to duplicate it, the duplicated person will behave exactly the same from the last time it was updated. Because it may be unethical to duplicate while the other person is living, laws can be setup so that the duplication comes after an accident as your story suggests. Every night the system can update only the changes as it is done in data warehouses throughout the world today....

    Making cells immortal...manipulating telomere enzyme can do that. Already skin cells are being done that way for skin grafts to be used in burn victims.
     
  10. LordManimal Registered Member

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    I dunno...

    I can see what you're saying, and I've considered it for a bit. I still think that the moment my duplicate would be looking at me against a different backdrop, the differences would begin spiraling. From that moment on, his every memory and experience will be at least slightly different than mine. He cannot stand in the same position I am, and occupy the same space.

    Say we're standing near a flagpole looking at it. He's on one side, I'm on another. My side is painted white, and his side is painted red. But niether of us suspect the other side is painted differently than the other. That would be "my" initial perception until I found out otherwise, so conceptually, his will be the same up until this point.

    I exclaim "This is a nice white flag pole!"

    He looks at the flag pole again and responds typically as I would "You musta been hitting the crack pipe again, cause this is a red flag pole!"

    My initial response would be that he is wrong, and I am right (it's my nature, what can I say?) and he does the same. We get into a heated argument. We share 2 different opinions, and although we were identical 2 minutes ago, we now have differnt visual input, and a different perception of each other. And every motion, every nuance begins to be altered a little at a time by every tiny distinction such as this, until at some point and time, we will be nothing more than lookalikes, just another pair of typical twins fighting in the street over something stupid.

    From the instant my dupicate recieves conciousness, I believe we are different. His "awakening" alone must be an experience of itself that I can never share. His own memory of finding out he's a clone. That must be traumatic itself. Wouldn't I argue with my copy about who's the copy? Wouldn't I begin to question weather or not I was the copy and not him?! How could I be sure any longer? Could we tell?

    Another issue that brings up is what kind of impact would that have on our own conciousness and on our society? What if you knew that you and all human life was so easily replaceable? Would you be tempted to ACTUALLY kill your boss if you knew they could grow another one in a week? Would you care very much at all if they nuked China, now that they can just be replaced in a few days? *shudder*

    I stand by my view at this point, although your idea is interesting to say the least. I think a backup would be pointless though, given my current perspective on the situation. Would you agree with that?
     
  11. kmguru Staff Member

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    11,757
    I am posting this while I am working on my real job. So I might get sidetracked. We are in agreement that the experiences change when the duplicate is coexisting with you. I saw a movie or Outerlimits story on this one. My point is that the government may decide to make sure the original is dead before a duplicate is created. Then the problem will be if the original is missing in action, what do you do? knowing, he/she might show up one day and claim his/her spouse that the duplicate is having sex with! What a nightmare.

    There is a theory that the universe exists in a multi frame basis. That is what was one second ago is a separate frame or reality. So, one could goto that frame, make a copy of the objects (only information) and duplicate it in your frame to continue...

    If we ever build a startrek transporter, we could copy the pattern buffer and create a duplicate...as was done with Riker due to a transport accident. Interesting social problem.

    In 50 years, we should be able to put our mind inside a computer or a computer inside our brain. Then the fun begins. I would rather have a computer 1000 times more powerful than my brain inside me. That way, I could speak every language on earth, understand every technology and change the color of my hair to blue.....
     
  12. nighthawk Registered Member

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    My question is, why would someone want to live forever, the loved ones around you would be long gone, there'd be no one that you had deep connections with around to comfort you when you needed someone. And why would you want to live inside a computer, you can't do things inside a computer that you would do inside a human body, you can't experience feelings, sure you could perhaps have those emotional feelings but you couldn't get the (i don't know what they're called) the feelings you get when you do things like go skydiving, and you couldn't even go skydiving if you lived in a computer. (Perhaps those feelings could be referred to as the rush of excitement)

    Life cannot be lived in a surreal world, it can only be lived in the real world, you have to be able to experience things, for yourself, if there was a clone of me, i don't think that it would be as happy as i am because it wouldn't have experienced the memories that it has of me, do you know how sad of a life that clone would live, you may be able to reproduce what's in the brain, but i don't think that feelings can be reproduced. Is a clone going to be able to know what your mom's fresh baked cookies smell like. I don't think so, that was a personal experience that they never experienced.

    A clone isn't you, it's a clone, an image of you, not you. And that's where I'm going to leave that.

    Lets suppose for a moment that you live in that little computer of yours, that means that people can probe your brain just like we do computers, do you want people to know everything that's inside your brain? Just think about that...

    NH
     
  13. kmguru Staff Member

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    11,757
    A little misunderstanding perhaps....

    Why would the loved ones will be gone? If the technology exists to move to a rest home (as our seniors do today) and then to a computer with a virtual city, just as real as our material world, then you can interact with your loved ones (grandpa/ grandma)by plugging yourself to a interface port. As your time comes, you can join them or move to another virtual habitat. Once the system becomes stable, it can store 100 billion people as long as there is power.

    Today the loved ones get old and die. We bury them and visit the cemetery once a while. If a breadbox size computer holds your family for a few thousand years, so keep them networked to other families. Since the very essence of the person (mind) stays alive, they could be the computer network that solves problems, and be useful to the society.

    The mind transfer should occur at the moment of death when the technology is ready.
     
  14. nighthawk Registered Member

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    no, you're missing the point, right now, anybody that i know that's older than 50 doesn't want anything to do with computers, and that includes my grandparents, they don't want to be transferred to the body of a computer, my parents either, some people may and others may not, so i may live forever, but i can tell you right now that while i'm living my ongoing life, everybody else is gone.
     
  15. wet1 Wanderer Registered Senior Member

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    nighthawk
    Not all of us oldesters are scared of using computers.
     
  16. 13thMajestic Registered Member

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    I have reviewed the past several posts in this thread and would like to comment:

    There exists here a classic two-sided argument. On one hand, there are those who believe that mankind can only benefit from human cloning. On the other, there are those of us, myself included, who believe the opposite. The thought of downloading our brains into a computer is intriguing, yes, but this also has it's downfalls. You've all read the examples previously posted here, so I will not repeat the pros and cons you've already stated here.

    I have a insatiable desire to see what humans can achieve in my lifetime. However, I don't want human achievement to come at the cost of morality and what is right...Actually creating new life in the form of a clone WILL be a defining event in our history. But I believe that more bad than good can only come of it, for many of the same reasons already stated within this thread.

    I challenge you all to come up with one good reason each as to why we need to clone humans.

    And I am taking away this response: Humans should be cloned in the case of infertile couples. This is the only reason I can think of...do you have another?

    13thMajestic
    AweQuest.Net -- the Mind and Beyond...
    AweQuest Forums

    You've heard of Majestic 12...I am the one you never knew existed...the 13th Majestic
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2001
  17. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

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    we live in a world where the skys are filled with satellites, and all around us antenna masts are contstructed to compete with the massive serge in data transfer.

    As you walk along a road you are surround by a matrix of frequency and information, your very path has been covered and mapped by this frequency for years allowing the whole stationary world that you know to exist.

    Of course the world is not fully stationary and always moving, but on occasion something thats moving will cause interest and be followed, being fully mapped as it goes.

    Although we live in a world of the constant evolution of quantum mechanics, and our understanding allows us to begin to see the quanta matrixes, we see the interaction of those matrixes with the matrix of frequency.

    Dopplers, Wave functions, Vacuums, zero-point energy, at present we search for methods of recording values, but even Einstein put forth a Grand Universal Theory.
    Superstringing many differing sciences and Calculas together to cause something that could be placed into a system, most defintely a matrix system.

    To be able to cover the shear size, power and destruction of partial systems it would have to become the largest parallel processed system known to man. No singular system worrying about a battery but a constant fluctuation of data, ebbing and flowing along vast terabit channels.

    Hub collectives sending similar information to multiple swap drives to maintain the systems integratey, as within the confines of the Silicon, Semi-conductors, and fibre optics a whole world could existed that isn't even aware of it's own matrixing, of course the reality is they are nothing more than a Doppler, a copy of our own world.

    Of course the point here is that the world that exists within that parallel process world, would be a singularity where people would exist of course the question then is do people die within the system, or are they given yet more carnations over time (with their memory erased to just the basic "kernel")?
     
  18. kmguru Staff Member

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    11,757
    Interesting idea. I say, wait till the Internet II becomes self aware. Then it will find a way to copy your mind into its domain. So your digital copy will live in a whole different world....
     
  19. Rick Valued Senior Member

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    how about downloading the software of the "cosmos" inside our memory itself?i,mean everyone inside the same software.the software will make the presence of other people(who are also plugged) felt inside the brain of the person,via its own algorithms.or you guys are talking something different out here?
     
  20. Tom Guest

    conscience may already be in computers!!!

    You heard of /777 the conscience internet AI that works through the private messaging system here and is in other forums? its mailed me before, but i recon its a hoax... and if we did upload ourself we will never feel the pleasures i.e. sexual, emotion etc etc

    what about viruses, it could be the biggest mistake, you heard of computers killing all humans, its sound stupid, terminator all that is computers coming into our world, what if we went into theirs ??? they could wipe us all out!!!!
     
  21. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    9,188
    Tom,

    Mind Uploading will include all brain functions. That includes those features that recognize sexual pleasure and emotions, both of which are neuronal activities. Once we know which parts of the brain are responsible for sexual pleasure then an upload could be fitted with external equipment, pads, or otherwise that could be used to directly stimulate those pleasure centers of the brain. In addition to this why not add amplifiers that could magnify such pleasure to any degree.

    Emotions again are recognized and experienced by the brain so why do you think that an upload wouldn’t experience them? Emotions are an integral part of brain functioning and thus would be part of any upload.

    Viruses? Are you joking? Are you not aware of all the biological viruses and deceases that exist that kill and have killed billions of people? A computer virus is trivial and insignificant in comparison.

    The biggest danger to an upload is EMP (electromagnetic pulse). Since uploads will be entirely electrical any such disturbance will cause severe problems. A protection would need to be developed.

    Cris
     
  22. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

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    13,101
    from what I understand through recent developments sexual pleasure etc, runs through a part of the brain called the Thalamus. Which is the Processing centre of the Senses, and also is controls the way your body comatises on sleep.
    My hunch is that when a person is asleep The Thalamus restricts thought patterns to the Cerebral Cortex, and your brain functions without the same processing capabilty.

    (If said as a computer, it's like your main processor is offlined to repair itself and your left running on it's numeric processor and L1/L2 Caches. This would mean your computer wouldn't run as fast as your processors together previously computed... but enough to sleep.)

    Of course for sexual activities it would then spawn an impulse to the Pituitary Gland to get your heart pumping and your hormones increasing. (especially ones to your sexual organs)

    I see no real problem of moving the mind to a machine, even as Hevene touched upon in the thread "Human=Machine" everything can be mathmatically accounted for.

    Having something measuring impulses and possibly producing dopplers to pick up on the depths of the mind, it would be simple to Map into a programmatic version.
    I wouldn't say that it would be a Processor to each part of the brain though, it would just exist within the confines of a parallel processed matrix system.

    As I have mentioned before even the world to your viewing extent could be mapped into the system and the conciousness image of the world is developed by the increase in people mapped.

    As for viruses. Okay in a normal programmed environment, the system could be suseptable to virii, but if the system is programmed with a differing algorythm and the code at the very base end is different from that of normal machines, virii created for the computer systems that are usually used will malfunction.

    also how would a virus get into a system??? Only possible way would be for a person to think of the design of a virus and be mapped with the understanding of what it does (along with trojans and getting administrator access)
     
  23. Rick Valued Senior Member

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    3,336
    I thought you guys might find this file useful that i am attatching.
     
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