Unfinished thought

Discussion in 'Eastern Philosophy' started by Raithere, Feb 10, 2005.

  1. Raithere plagued by infinities Valued Senior Member

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    Unfinished thought:

    Is the way a path, as if towards a destination?
    Or is the path itself the realization of the destination?

    No Nirvana, no eternal water, no final release of self... just a way to travel?

    ~Raithere
     
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  3. VossistArts 3MTA3 Registered Senior Member

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    seeing as we never really know what the destination is, i think the path is the destination, or as you said the realization of the destination. i tend to think that the reason people assume a final destination in the first place must have something to do with the fact the physical death seems so like a huge final destination (if nothing else) in our reality. i cant comprehend absolutes myself. i.e. any concept that terminates whereby there is nothing more. like our universe. if there is an end, then whats directly on the other side? how could there concievably be final destination or highest perceptive vantage point without there being a new view of what is beyond that. surely there must be more, but of course not necessarily*.if you go with this logic, i think at some point the path becomes tuned with purpose or intent, but that the path and the destination are in fact one thing.

    * i thinnk one thing that needs to be said is, that in almost every case where we are speculating on things not yet experieced, we have to consider that the possibilities we dont think of, that are outside of our world-veiw perspective and logic, are entirely possible and even likely. we have a natural tendency to believe that only what we know or can project based on our experience of things are the only choices or possibly outcomes. this sort of thinking is incredibly short sighted, and restrictive where acknowledgment of certain possibilies is necessary in order for its realization and or activation. how can we know what we dont know in advance? we cant. we just have to be open to accept that what may come to pass may well yet be completely unknown heh
     
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  5. suzukisfrog Registered Senior Member

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    looks like you guys are on the path to the soto school. watch out for dogen, he will hit you. the universe & beyond are at least inconceivable if not impossible.
     
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  7. duendy Registered Senior Member

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    Imagine you are in a horse and carriage, and are on a journey.... "clippity clop, clippity clop..." go the horses hooves as it takes you donw and round windy lanes and over broad planes and through wooded capoies on the way to your destination

    you are looking ,and smelling, and taking in this journey. you may even meet characters on the way that come in and out of our carriage.........
    after quite a while, you rech you destination, and begin walking. and you take in the obsevations of your walk, the scents, and sounds, and people you pass and may talk to. then you at last reach your place where you are staying, and walk in the room and sit down. and you sit quite, and listen to the sounds outside the window, and the smeall of the room, and your reflections of the journey.....

    where has the journey ended?
     
  8. Bebelina kospla.com Valued Senior Member

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    Always going home...
    That was nice duendy.
     
  9. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    There is no way,
    the path is a circle,
    you are already home.
     
  10. xcaleber Registered Member

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    Like the saying goes....."life is a journey not a destination." And just as VossistArt posits, "when does it end?" I would assume that time is illusory so it doesn't end suggesting the path is the destination. But I think we are mostly, if not completely, defined by our errors. Its when the interval of reflection and action overlap can we fully neglect destination.
     
  11. dan74 Registered Senior Member

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    It is the self that craves for final release, I think. No self - no release from self necessary. (self is a concept, a way of experiencing, perceiving. Direct perception without a perceiver is a beginning of no self)

    Ambition, desire, clinging on to self, to goals, that's where destinations come from. But how to motivate yourself if not with goals? Perhaps Love is one great motivator without a goal. Compassion, another. Maybe even Truth?
     
  12. Awake Just BE! Registered Senior Member

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    136
    When you realize you are already there, you can see how you got there.

    The goal isn't out there, the real goal is just realizing you have reached it. Accepting and realizing you are. Then you can comprehend the magnitude and just be.
     
  13. Notthis Registered Member

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    Awake and others here are right. It comes to a point where practise in the normal traditional sense is superceded by simply knowing your true condition and resting with confidence in that awareness. 'Doing' isn't necessary, and trying to reach a spiritual 'somewhere else' not only takes you further away from where you want to be - here and now - but also implies a concept of dualism of the very kind that the Path hopes to remove.

    Simply rest in normal awareness. Don't 'do', don't meditate. Know.


    Notthis
     
  14. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    It is the path itself that you should pay careful attention to for all that you do along your path will take you to your quest.
     
  15. Notthis Registered Member

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    I would have to disagree Cosmic, but we all have our own way, I'm happy for that to be yours

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    .

    There is no quest (ie, goal) and there is neither a person nor not a person here to have one.

    Notthis
     
  16. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    I have one and I'd think others have theirs so I'd think you should rephraze your last statement. If you don't that's your own thought but to say what others think cannot be held as a true statement unless you can read minds.
     
  17. Notthis Registered Member

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    >>I have one and I'd think others have theirs so I'd think you should rephraze your last statement. If you don't that's your own thought but to say what others think cannot be held as a true statement unless you can read minds.

    We've have no quarrel, I'm just telling you how what is being talked about is referred to in Buddhism (and most of Hinduism too). Through the use of logic, this reality can be shown to be in a state of neither existing nor not exisiting, to the point where it becomes irrlevant to talk about one extreme or the other as a 'given' reality. There can not really be shown to be any goal or anyone to reach it, just a relative conceptual construct trying to get somewhere it already is. This is illustrated by the Chinese Buddhist talk about 'going out to find the jewel in the hem of your own coat'. Meaning, they're going out to find something (realsation) that they already possess.


    I'm not sure if you know anything about this as Emptiness, (or co-dependant origination)? The idea is used, amongst others, to help students break through the restrictions of this reality, and gain a first hand experince of Ultimate Reality.

    There is no need to seek something that you already are. There is no quest. This is illustrated by the Chinese Buddhist saying that monks who seek enlightenment go out to find the jewel in the hem of their own coats.

    Nice to meet you BTW

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    Notthis
     
  18. Notthis Registered Member

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    LOL...and I reallly messed up THAT post. Not sure how I managed that....

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    N
     
  19. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    The path towards self enlightenment follows your own choices that you make along your lifes path.

    Nice to meet you also.
     
  20. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    It's a path toward your own nature, which is a paradox, since in the act of seeking, you are moving away.
     
  21. jacob Registered Member

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  22. Notthis Registered Member

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    >>Spiritual enlightenment is just an idea that should not be taken seriously. in fact the fastest way to enlightenment is to realise enlightenment dosn't exist.

    It is an idea that should be, and of course is, taken very seriously indeed, as there have been hundreds of people who've achieved realisation. But I think that what you might be alluding to is the fact that, as it is something we already possess, the act of seeking gets in the way of simply experiencing it, as what you follow on to say is of course perfectly true within that context.

    >>only when you give up all thoughts of the past and the future and of enlightenment can you enter into the present moment in which you find yourself in complete silence. then you will experience the natural state of being and realise that all you desires for enlightenment are actually keeping you froming experiencing it.>>

    <Or is the path itself the realization of the destination?>

    Realisation is both the Path and the Fruit. However, it's a dangerous ploy to try and take new students straight towards simply sitting and being what you already are. You really need a basis of either direct experience or long study to understand exactly WHY there is no goal and what you need to leave behind.

    The usual route to this is a few years in Mahayana, then prgression say, into Mahamudra and later, as realisation needs to be consolidated and 'lived', Dzogchen.


    N
     
  23. Awake Just BE! Registered Senior Member

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    The years you are talking about (phases actually) are just one of many paths. If it works for you then wonderful but I don't agree that everyone needs that path. Everyone is already on their own path, if they realize it or not. The path is an on-going journey to find out your own realization. Those who are realized masters often times refer back to their many previous lives. They were on their own paths for all those lifetimes.
     

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