Unf**king Believable, A mosque to be built at Ground Zero

you sure because it seems like most of your arguments are based on it

yes actually it is. by the way check your grammar you sentence doesn't mean what you want it to.

logical fallacy. just because he isn't a sufi(which you haven't shown he isn't) doesn't mean he is a Wahabbi.

So because he wants the palestinian to get there rights he is a terrorist?

again something you have provided no proof of. all you have is allegations

by questionable you mean saying that maybe the US actions played a role

Don't get huffy because you got called out on trying to get away with passing unproven BS as a solid argument.

 

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Bzzzzt! Due process, 'innocent until proven guilty' and habeas corpus apply.

You in my eyes are worse that what you fear from this place. You are a danger to freedom.

 

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Pj, I'm taking the unusual step of ignoring you here, because you're talking nonsense; or moreso than is usual for you.

But of course. Can we investigate, even, or must we wait until 'trained professionals arrive'? (See above in my discussion with Bells.)

Really? And here I haven't oppressed anyone - yet. Have your principles suddenly become elastic? (Habeas corpus, free speech and all that.)

 

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Guys. People complain about cultural insensitivity and how we as society are supposed to be aware of it or compensate for it... and in this case, it seems culturally insensitive to build a mosque in or around the site, don't you think?

I'm just using the argument used by ethnic minorities (including muslims) ALL THE TIME and spinning it around.

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'Yet', ... says it all.

 

But of course. Why do you think I'm seeking real power? A vote for Geoff is a vote for never having to vote again. Think of all the free time you'll gain!

 

Think instead of Communist Dictator better Emperor.
What beautiful sounds "Eastern Korea Empire".
If you promise the government of a region you can have my vote.

 

Done!

 

This mosque story is just sparking hatred and forcing people to pick sides. Whether or not this story was intentionally created and planted in the media for this purpose... who knows. But the end result is the same. Do not degrade yourself by falling for such an obvious ploy.

And to those people out there who were personally affected by the 9/11 attack- you need to get over the misdirected hatred if you haven't already. Experiencing tragedy does not excuse you from civility. A patriotic hate monger with a story is still a hate monger.

So with all emotions aside, should the mosque be built at ground zero? Obviously not. It's way too dangerous(which is one of the reasons why I think this story was created only to spark this debate, and team choosing). Although in theory, I do think it would be an exercise in forgiveness and understanding.

 

Why would you think that? It's purpose is whatever the people who are building it have for it - whoever they are. Saudis, probably? Kuwaitis? Yemenis? It doesn't seem to be well named, sited, or designed to benefit American Muslims.

I am repeatedly informed by local experts that most of the objectionable features of Muslim cultures like Saudi Arabia's, Nigeria's, Yemen's, Malaysia's, etc, are not true Islam. Argue with them.

I would imagine there are plenty of brochures, mission statements, and so forth, available right now. Being printed on high gloss paper, they aren't much use to me.

Great start at that, this isn't.

If it turns out that the major support for this thing is in fact from Wahabi Saudis, they do have the agenda it appears they have, and its purpose is their purpose, will you re-evaluate your currently completely uninformed stance?

Based on what evidence we are allowed to have. They could all be cleared up, and benign facts made more clear, with more information. The financiers and supporters of this thing are really quite shy; an admirable modesty, no doubt, but the suspicions they breed thereby damage their laudable purposes - if any.

 

It's all an obvious ploy, from the so-called "attacks" to the mosque at ground zero story.
They are on record before 9-11 saying they "needed another pearl harbor" event to get American citizens motivated to go to war.
It's amazing the success this "Shock and Awe" campaign has had. Especially when used against their own citizens.
Most just can't believe their trusted news sources and government officials would perpetrate such a crime against humanity.

The situation was possibly created to spark debate and renew hatred. They can't allowed us to forget.
Remember the flags on every car? It was spooky thing when you consider the level of deception involved.
There is probably going to be massive American casualties when they move into Iran.
New weapons like Iran's Russian built supersonic torpedoes will see to that.
Then at some point it will just become self perpetuating. That will create public sentiment for war on it's own.
Just like the stranglehold Hitler and the Nazis had on Germany, were are nearly back there again.
The days of martial law, internment camps, and red arm bands are just around the corner. You say it can't happen in America?
Just ask "normal" people to question what they've been told about September 11, 2001.
There is something that will not let them do it. That's as spooky as the little flags on the cars.

 

Iranian-built (and designed according to them). Not Russian-built.
But then again the claims made by the Iranians with regard to its capabilities aren't entirely believable either.

 

Yeah, I've never seen one either. Just heard about them.
Rocket powered traveling inside a generated gas bubble.
They are supposed to be nearly unstoppable at that speed.

I would find it hard to believe the Iranians designed something so advanced NATO doesn't even have it yet.
They more than likely took a Russian supplied Shkval and copied it changing a few things to create the Hoot.
That still leaves them with a very dangerous weapon. It could take out an aircraft carrier with 5,000 men aboard.

Here's what Wiki says about it...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VA-111_Shkval

 

They're old news (the Russian - actually Soviet - original dates back to before the end of the Cold War).

And as for "unstoppable", sure. But they're short-range and mostly unguided. They were developed as a last ditch defensive weapon - effectively a last, dying (or desperate) response - for Soviet missile subs. If something is within 10 km or so and moving slowly it's a viable target (moving slowly since the Shkval/ Hoot only goes in a straight line so the target needs to be predictable and unable to manoeuvre sufficiently well to turn aside). But 10 km is a ridiculously short range for a torpedo - the 1970s Mk 48 anti-sub torpedo has a range of ~40 km and homes in on its victim.

 

Early designs may have been sluggish because the initial design was intended for nuclear warhead delivery.
But later designs fitted for conventional warheads change controls in direction using four fins that skim the inner surface of the supercavitation envelope.
Also to make faster turns, the push plate on the nose can be used to control the shape of the bubble the missile is traveling in.
This is like the thrust vectoring used on F-22's.
It sounds like the maneuverability of the Russian weapons were upgraded when they fitted them for conventional warheads later with a smaller yield.
Not sure about the Iranian "Hoot" version. We'll know soon enough I think.

 

This is just a tempest in a tea pot. You cannot even see "ground zero" from the mosque. And we are a nation that respects private ownership and religion. It is time to suck it up and walk the talk..

 

You guys do know there is a mosque in the Pentagon, right? At least a hundred Muslim Pentagon employees pray there every day.

 

Yes. There are other mosques in New York, as well. No complaints.

So can we drop the repeated attempts to brand this as nothing but anti-Islam bigotry, hatred of mosques, etc, and consider what is actually going on here?

The site appears to have been chosen for its symbolic value to its organizers financiers - it's the site of one of the buildings hit by the planes on 9/11 (wheel assembly through the roof), and this event with its consequences was described as the working of a "divine hand" by one of its public spokesmen.

 

Actually, I think services are on Fridays; and it's a multifaith chapel.

This is a contrast to the proposed 13-story Islamic centre at "Park 51", funded almost certainly by Saudi Arabia and equally likely to be involved in spreading a Salafist, not Sufi, version of Islam.