Umboi: Did Rays Evolve The Ability To Fly?

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common_sense_seeker

Bicho Voador & Bicho Sugador
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It's my craziest idea yet: did the 150 million year old ancient mariners of the sea leap into the air to glide and then learn to fly (manta ray photograph)? We know of flying fish, so it isn't beyond the ability of our watery relatives. I saw the picture of a manta ray reaching 7ft out of the ocean (Science Illustrated Sep/Oct 09) and it reminded me of the 'cornish owlman's maw' and its tail and batoid wings could have been what the eye witnesses actually saw (link) on Umboi island near Papua New Guinea. Anyone think that this is as good a contender as the bird or pterosaur for our mystery 'things with wings'?
 
Enmos said:
Lets hope so! Although it doesn't get much crazier than this..
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lol. Thanks anyway.

Enmos said:
Nothing here but this:

"Credibility of the Umboi Island eyewitnesses
who claim to have seen a giant ropen and
describe it in terms suggesting a pterosaur"

And a couple of unrelated links.
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Here's a you-tube of the original eye witness interview: Ropen Witness Interview. Now I've re-watched their drawing, the head isn't a natural fit to a ray. Perhaps a pterosaur or a bird is more likely. Anyway, it's still possible, 150 milion years is a long time for evolution.
 
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I think its unrelated. First off, theyre too large,

Flying fish are only several inches long to a foot or more, they can supprot that weight mid air.

a manta ray does not have the skeleton nor the musculature to support out of water behavior.
 
common_sense_seeker said:
lol. Thanks anyway.

Here's a you-tube of the original eye witness interview: Ropen Witness Interview. Now I've re-watched their drawing, the head isn't a natural fit to a ray. Perhaps a pterosaur or a bird is more likely. Anyway, it's still possible, 150 milion years is a long time for evolution.
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There is no way a fully aquatic animal will be able to fly.
There is no way a flying animal will be able to live under water or even dive to respectable depths.
The animal would be condemned to an existence floating on the water. And I don't see how such an animal of the size mentioned in the video would ever be able to lift off from the water.

It's bullcrap!
 
fedr808 said:
I think its unrelated. First off, theyre too large,

Flying fish are only several inches long to a foot or more, they can supprot that weight mid air.

a manta ray does not have the skeleton nor the musculature to support out of water behavior.
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Did you not see the photograph! A manta ray 7ft out of the air. You've heard of gliding mammals by flaps in their skin. The size has nothing to with ability to fly. Pterosaurs are proven to have been around 30ft or more in wingspan.

Enmos said:
There is no way a fully aquatic animal will be able to fly.
There is no way a flying animal will be able to live under water or even dive to respectable depths.
The animal would be condemned to an existence floating on the water. And I don't see how such an animal of the size mentioned in the video would ever be able to lift off from the water.

It's bullcrap!
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I've got a distinction in aerodynamics, and can assure you that the size doesn't matter. Evolutionary advantage it would be, and so shouldn't be ruled out.

P.S: If I had the resources myself, I would pay to have 1m resolution satellite photgraphs taken of the lake craters of Umboi island on full moon nights Ikonos High-Resolution Satellite Imagery. If two photos are taken 3 seconds apart (for example), then the ropen or its shadow should be identifiable. It would prove that there is something big that flies at night! It would be the only way to capture these elusive creatures on film in my opinion.
 
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common_sense_seeker said:
Did you not see the photograph! A manta ray 7ft out of the air. You've heard of gliding mammals by flaps in their skin. The size has nothing to with ability to fly. Pterosaurs are proven to have been around 30ft or more in wingspan.

I've got a distinction in aerodynamics, and can assure you that the size doesn't matter. Evolutionary advantage it would be, and so shouldn't be ruled out.

P.S: If I had the resources myself, I would pay to have 1m resolution satellite photgraphs taken of the lake craters of Umboi island on full moon nights Ikonos High-Resolution Satellite Imagery. If two photos are taken 3 seconds apart (for example), then the ropen or its shadow should be identifiable. It would prove that there is something big that flies at night! It would be the only way to capture these elusive creatures on film in my opinion.
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You have to take into consideration that water has a higher atmospheric pressure than air. In fact the further you go in depth the higher the atmospheric pressure. When you have a Fish, Manta Ray, Dolphin, Whale, Seal etc swimming, they don't necessarily swim at one level, in fact they might well go deep down. obviously when they come back up it's easier and faster for them to move because the pressure becomes less, so much so that they can jump out of the water pretty high.

Jumping out of the water I wouldn't suggest would sudden cause a creature to understand flight, let alone evolve to be capable of it. Since all they are doing is following physical laws by translating force into momentum.

you can go further than just looking at a fish jumping out of water, for instance if you look to the structure of birds you'll find they have a very light skeletal structure and their muscle locations are not the same as a Manta's fins. In fact it's stated that birds evolved from dinosaurs (lizards) and a Manta is not even in that Genus.(wiki:Bird Evolution)
 
Enmos said:
Genus? Hell, they are not even in the same Class..
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Hehe :) I suppose "cavemen" could of stuck feathers on them... now that would just require cavemen to be sitting in on the right class during the right period and would of had to of invented feathers.

Also I don't think schools of fish allow birds to join. (yes, inane jokes for sure ;))
 
Stryder said:
Hehe :) I suppose "cavemen" could of stuck feathers on them... now that would just require cavemen to be sitting in on the right class during the right period and would of had to of invented feathers.

Also I don't think schools of fish allow birds to join. (yes, inane jokes for sure )
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lol

Class :spank:

;)
 
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Stryder said:
You have to take into consideration that water has a higher atmospheric pressure than air. In fact the further you go in depth the higher the atmospheric pressure. When you have a Fish, Manta Ray, Dolphin, Whale, Seal etc swimming, they don't necessarily swim at one level, in fact they might well go deep down. obviously when they come back up it's easier and faster for them to move because the pressure becomes less, so much so that they can jump out of the water pretty high.
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It's our air system of the human body which means we are ill-adapted for the ocean depths. Rays would have a non-gaseous functioning of the body, that's all. It doesn't mean they will 'pop out' of the water any easier due to a 'release of pressure'.
Stryder said:
Jumping out of the water I wouldn't suggest would sudden cause a creature to understand flight, let alone evolve to be capable of it. Since all they are doing is following physical laws by translating force into momentum.
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The photograph clearly shows the potential for a limited gliding ability using the added 'ground effect' for ocean flight. All a ray does is fly through the water (a fluid) using an undulating motion of its body-wings. The muscles that cause this undulation would be more than able to perform the same function whilst airborne! (i.e. another fluid)
 
Enmos said:
Lets hope so! Although it doesn't get much crazier than this..
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with him (or her?) it gets much much more crazier than this...:rolleyes:

soon he'll say spaghetti do grow on trees and there is proof of it by Albert Einstein's relativity equation, we just have to see spaghetti relative to the trees and it all makes sense...:rolleyes: no that example is way too normal to be considered crazy on his scale...

spaghetti.jpg
 
draqon said:
with him (or her?) it gets much much more crazier than this...:rolleyes:

soon he'll say spaghetti do grow on trees and there is proof of it by Albert Einstein's relativity equation, we just have to see spaghetti relative to the trees and it all makes sense...:rolleyes: no that example is way too normal to be considered crazy on his scale...
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Yup
 
The latest research shows that a ray's cartilage can be a lot stronger and stiffer than previously thought. This report Jaws of Death - cartilaginous fishes - Brief Article explains:

Adam Summers, a biologist at the University of California, Berkeley, is determined to show that this supposed inferiority of cartilaginous fishes is a biomechanical myth. Cartilage is indeed generally weaker than bone but at times can become remarkably stiff and strong. For the past few years, Summers has been studying the cownose ray (Rhinoptera bonasus). This three-foot-wide creature, which lives solely on hard-shelled mollusks, is a scourge of oystermen; a school of 3,000 rays can pick an oyster bed clean in an afternoon. A ray eats its prey by grabbing the mollusk in its mouth and crushing the shell with its jaws
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A body plan able to change the stiffness of it's flexible structure, allowing it to fly through the water as well as the air?! It's possible!
 
common_sense_seeker said:
A body plan able to change the stiffness of it's flexible structure, allowing it to fly through the water as well as the air?! It's possible!
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No, it isn't!
Any ideas on how it will fly through water if it is light enough to fly through air?
Any ideas on how it will breathe while flying through the air? Oh right, it has to evolve longs first :rolleyes:
Not to mention, it has to evolve warmbloodedness, or at least semi-warmbloodedness, if it is going to fly through the air.
 
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