>>>>Also I think that it is very strange that the signs at the entrance to the site warn of danger from strong electromagnetic pulse now what is up with that? radar?
plus, has nothing happened in ufo circles since roswell nearly 60 years ago? i thought roswell had been debunked well enough for it to be a non-issue by now.
Starman, I trust you haven't invested to much of yourself in this 'project'. SkinWalker has proved, with minimal effort and consumate skill, what others assumed was the case. "I lived in the area for over 10 years this area is very arid and only recives three inches of rainfall per year." That's an average rainfall. Have you heard of flash floods? "Eye witness from the Roswell incindent have stated that the disk was crashed into the back side of a mountain or hill and there were several dirt roads cut into the area surrounding it." And just how many desert areas are there in the US with dirt roads crossing them? Your implication is that this is rare. Prove that please.
It's still a hill. Regardless of your opinion of the rainfall in the region, the erosion on the hill is obvious and it does ocurr. In fact, I was on White Sands durring a torrent in '95. It wasn't fun and there was significant flash-flooding. The EM warnings are likely due to EMP testing, which I know for fact occurred (or occurs) on WS. EMP is, after all, of military importance. Both as a weapon and as a need to develop shielding for electronics in the event an enemy employs an EMP weapon or nuclear device. You can't exactly test these things near the main post or in populated areas. You're reaching and relying on a belief system to support your conclusions. The belief that an alien spacecraft crashed into the NM desert and that the military covered it up. Looking at the photos, all that can be discerned is a hill. Unless, of course, one employs his imagination. Its a hill.
I agree with you 100% also It is my belief that we did recover debris from a alien craft in 1947. Why if this is a crashed disk, did they not relocate it to somewhere they could study it. Also this area is where they fly alot of drons and alot of things come crashing down around this site. If it turns out to be some kind of experimental craft that we built it would not shock me. If it turns out to be a rock or part of the terrain then I will except that. I however would like the chance to visit the site to take a look. Do you think they will let me? I have a phone number for the base commander should I call and ask to visit the site? Skin Walker you are awsome your input has been appreciated and I thank you for your time to respond on this topic.
Your best bet to visit the site might be to go through fish & game. Most bases, I'd bet WS included, have Fish & Game/Wildlife Management divisions. Hunters and anglers have ability to gain access with the right permits & licenses in the right seasons. You might even get a chance under the aspices of photographing, examing the wildlife of the two creeks after flash flooding. Good luck.
Oh dear.... By the way, i never knew Roswell was "debunked" unless you mean the "weather balloon?" Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
I find it funny that people fall for the whole Roswell cover up. The first story was the truth and the government did not do a very good job of covering it up. They forgot to kill all the eye whitneses.
>>>> They forgot to kill all the eye whitneses. what eye witnesses did they kill? reputable refereneces please.
I think he means, they forgot to kill all the eye witneses, as in they didint kill any of the eye witneses but they should have/forgot to.
Speaking of Roswell here is a memo that General Ramey was holding in his hand while he was possing for the photo op on the ballon cover up story. http://www.sciforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3574&stc=1 Now upon futher inhancement this is part of that memo http://www.sciforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3575&stc=1 If it was a weather ballon why does Rameys memo mention a disc? The memo instructs Ramey to ship the recovered items to Patterson and to do a press release on the balloon cover story.
LOL....i guess he posts images of his monitor showing blurry photos because of one thing....its all BS! I'm willing to bet the real "source" looks nothing like that.
This was a still immage from the documentry The Roswell Crash: Startling New Evidence that aired on the Sci Fi Channel. Here is a cool link if you want to check it out. http://roswellproof.homestead.com/
I did try looking for a better image blow up incase the one in use there was doctored, you have to take into account the amount of fake information that is floating about that hasn't be generated by government conspirators but by people that just want to deliver to the world that smoking gun. (Such as the Alien Autopsy film, or even pictures of the LochNess Monster) Especially when there is such sites that contan historical evidence that would explain Roswell all too easily for most to accept: http://www.gl.iit.edu/wadc/History/Roswell/
I think it is funny that the link you are refferencing uses events from 1955 to explain the Roswell incedent in 1947. You can tell that they had a limmited budget for that cover story. Also the only reason everyone talks about Roswell is because that was the center of publicity for the incedent. The crash site was closer to Corona New Mexico. Corona is alot further west of Roswell. There is a greate deal more credible evedence for the crash of an alien spacecraft of the Roswell incedent than there is against it.
I think its funny that people are so willing to believe in grandiose conspiracies based on anecdotal accounts from a period in American history when hysteria occurred over an Orson Wells radio broadcast. There is zero credible evidence to support a crash of alien spacecraft anywhere, much less in Roswell, NM. Anecdotal account alone doesn't qualify as credible evidence.
Witness Testimony There seems to be no conventional explanation that squares with the statements found in Gen. Ramey's memo. But when we look at the contents of the message in conjunction with witness testimony, the evidence clearly points to an actual flying saucer crash, as astonishing as this conclusion may seem to many. This testimony is gone into in much greater detail elsewhere in this Website. http://roswellproof.homestead.com/ It consists primarily of numerous and consistent descriptions of highly anomalous debris and to a much lesser extent of alien bodies. Here are a few key witnesses: Major Jesse Marcel: Then the intelligence chief at Roswell and the first to investigate sheep rancher Mack Brazel's find, Marcel confirmed in a number of interviews 30 years later that the crash debris had highly anomalous properties and was "not of this Earth." Marcel also spoke of Ramey's weather balloon cover-up at Fort Worth. Click on link to Marcel for more information on his service record, which belies efforts of debunkers to paint him as hysterical and incompetent. Note particularly highly laudatory post-Roswell evaluations by base commander Col. William Blanchard, Gen. Ramey, and future USAF Chief of Staff Col. John Ryan. New! Marcel's testimony on anomalous debris. Marcel's sighting before Roswell & other witnesses seeing saucer explode. Bill Brazel Jr.: Rancher Mack Brazel's son, Bill Brazel independently corroborated many details of Marcel's testimony, including the strange debris, the large, elongated debris field, and his father's story of an explosion in the middle of a violent electrical storm. (Brazel's testimony on debris) New! Louis Rickett: One of the regular Army CIC agents in Marcel's office, Rickett confirmed the anomolous quality of the debris, a major cleanup operation at Brazel's ranch, high secrecy, and being involved in a subsequent investigation to determine the trajectory of the craft. He was also told by others about the shape of the main craft. (Rickett's testimony on debris) New! Brig. Gen. Arthur Exon: Though not a direct participant, Exon was stationed at Wright Field at the time, overflew the area soon afterwards, and was later commanding officer of Wright-Patterson AFB. Exon when first interviewed flatly stated, "Roswell was the recovery of a craft from space." Among other things, he confirmed the existence of two main crash sites. Exon also said he heard that bodies were recovered and confirmed the debris was highly anomalous based on testing done by labs at Wright-Patterson. Exon added that he was aware of other crash-recoveries that occurred while he was C/O at Wright-Patterson. Click on link to see Exon's Air Force biography and some of his testimony. (Also testimony in debris section) New! (Added April 26, 2003) Brig Gen. Steven Lovekin (served in the Eisenhower and Kennedy White Houses) Although like Exon not a direct participant, Lovekin is yet another high ranking officer talking about being told of crashed New Mexico saucers, of being shown a metallic beam with symbols from a 1947 N.M. crash (presumably Roswell) at a Pentagon briefing in 1959, and also of either 3 or 5 aliens being recovered, one initially alive. He also said he was shown very compelling photographic and radar evidence of UFOs. He also testified of the threats against military personnel given this information if they were to publicly reveal it. Finally, he told of Eisenhower's concern over losing control of the situation with power falling into the hands of private corporations given access to the materials. Lovekin is a Disclosure Project witness. Video testimony; audio testimony. For transcribed exerpts click on Lovekin's link above. Testimony on metallic beam added to debris section. Brig. Gen. Thomas Dubose: Gen. Ramey's Chief of Staff in 1947, Dubose handled the high-level phone communications between Roswell, Fort Worth, and Washington. Dubose went on record many times about the high secrecy involved (including the matter going directly to the White House), receiving direct orders from Washington to instigate a cover-up, Gen. Ramey's weather balloon cover story, and a highly secret shipment of debris from Roswell to Fort Worth, Washington, and Wright Field. Dubose's damning testimony made him a complete nonentity in the Air Force's 1995 Roswell report, which didn't even bother to identify him in the photos taken of Gen. Ramey with his weather balloon. Click on link to view Dubose's Air Force biography, his sworn affidavit, and a more detailed discussion of his testimony which the Air Force was so eager to avoid. Sgt. Robert Slusher and "Tim": Crew members on a mysterious B-29 flight from Roswell to Fort Worth on July 9, 1947, transporting a large wooden crate in the bombbay surrounded by an armed guard. Upon arrival, the plane was met by high brass and a mortician. This is probably the flight referred to in the Ramey memo that would ship whatever was "in the 'disc'" to Fort Worth by a B-29 Special Transport plane. Click on link to view Slusher's affidavit and the account of "Tim's" testimony and flight log. Frank Kaufmann: A highly controversial witness claiming to be one of the exclusive members of a special CIC-team (Army Counter-Intelligence Corp) in charge of the Roswell recovery operation. Nonetheless, some of Kaufmann's claims seem to be corroborated by the Ramey message, including the existence of such a team, the recovery of an intact "disk" with bodies inside, and the special team being responsible for the initial Roswell base press release. Kaufmann also testified to knowing of a wooden crate guarded in a hangar with the bodies packed inside awaiting shipment, perhaps the same crate independently described by Slusher and "Tim." However, in light of the Ramey memo, that places the finding of "victims" and a "disk" on July 8, Kaufmann's statements about a July 5 recovery date for the craft and bodies is almost undoubtably false, as was his crash location. (New! See also recent CUFOS exposure of Kaufmann faking documents -- PDF file.) Shortly before he died, Kaufmann changed this craft/body recovery site to a more westerly location closer to the debris field site. See page on the military cordon for more information about these sites. Glenn Dennis: A Roswell mortician and another highly controversial witness, Dennis spoke of receiving strange calls from the base about preservation techniques and child-sized coffins. Dennis also claimed to be at the Roswell base hospital, seeing unusual debris in the back of an ambulance including a pod-like object perhaps alluded to in the Ramey message, and being threatened. He also claimed to know a Roswell nurse who assisted in a preliminary autopsy at the base hospital and who described the aliens to him. Click on link to see Dennis' affidavit and summary of his testimony. However, attempts to identify the mystery nurse have proven to be a complete failure after Dennis provided a false name. Some other parts of his testimony also do not add up, making his overall testimony questionable. However, also see some corroborative evidence immediately following Dennis' affidavit, such as David Wagnon, a medical technician, who remembered the nurse fitting Dennis' description, and former Roswell police chief L. M. Hall., who stated that Dennis was telling him of calls from the base about small coffins for the aliens only a few days after the crashed saucer story broke in the Roswell papers. In addition, other independent witnesses have provided second-hand testimony about small bodies being found with details very similar to those provided by Dennis, including relatives of "Pappy" Henderson, immediately below. Family and friends of Oliver "Pappy" Henderson: Henderson was one of the senior pilots at Roswell. When the first public stories of a Roswell saucer crash began circulating in 1981, Henderson confided to family and friends of being the pilot who flew bodies of the aliens and crash wreckage to Wright Field. He also claimed to have seen the craft and bodies, and provided a description of the aliens. Click on link for affidavits. (Related testimony in debris section) Sgt. Robert E. Smith: A member of an air transport unit at Roswell, Smith said he helped load crates filled with debris for transport by C-54's, including one flown by Henderson and his crew. Smith was also among the witnesses to describe the mysterious "memory foil" which he said was in the crates. He further described strangers to the base dressed in plainclothes and flashing ID cards for some unknown project, perhaps part of the special CIC-team mentioned in the Ramey memo and by Frank Kaufmann. Finally he claimed that distant cousin of his was with the Secret Service and was there at the base representing President Truman. (The same name was also provided by Kaufmann.) Click on link for Smith's affidavit. Earl Zimmerman: Formerly with AFOSI (AF counterintelligence). While in officers' club heard many rumors about flying saucer crash and of it being investigated under the guise of an airplane crash. Several times observed Gen. Ramey and Charles Lindbergh being at base unannounced in connection with this. Like Robert Smith, spoke of seeing an unknown CICman being at base. Col. Blanchard told him it was OK. Later worked with astronomer Dr. Lincoln LaPaz and corroborated story of Roswell CICman Lewis Rickett that LaPaz investigated Roswell afterwards with the help of the CIC to try to determine objects trajectory. Again an airplane crash was the cover story. Lt. Robert Shirkey: Then the assistant operations officer, Shirkey witnessed the loading of the B-29 that took Major Marcel to Fort Worth to see Gen. Ramey. He said he saw boxes of debris being carried on board, including an I-beam with raised markings and a large piece of metal, brushed stainless steel in color, obviously not part of a tinfoil radar target. He was told it was from a flying saucer. Along with witness Robert Porter, he also stated that the plane's pilot was Deputy Commanding Officer Lt. Col. Payne Jennings, who was now the Acting C/O with Col. Blanchard officially on leave. Nine days later, Shirkey was abruptly transferred to the Philippines to a post that didn't exist. Jennings personally flew him to his next assignment. Click on link to see Shirkey's affidavit and link to other testimony. See also debris descriptions. New! Sgt. Robert Porter: Was on Marcel's flight to Fort Worth and was handed wrapped packages of debris samples. Said that flight was piloted by Deputy base commander Jennings. He was told on board that the crash material was from a flying saucer. Later, they told him it was a weather balloon. Said debris was loaded onto another plane. Click on link for affidavit. Other Affidavits Walter Haut: Former Roswell base public information officer. Issued the base press release. Was pretty sure base commander Blanchard had seen the crash material. In 1980 Marcel told him the photos in Fort Worth were staged and that wasn't what was recovered. Art McQuiddy: Former editor of the Roswell Morning Dispatch. Said base commander Col. Blanchard admitted to authorizing base press release and of strange material being found by his men. Judd Roberts: Co-owner of Roswell radio station KGFL owner. Spoke of how they wire-recorded an interview with rancher Mack Brazel for later airing, then withdrew it about receiving warnings from Washington about losing their license. Testified to seeing a military cordon around Brazel crash site. New! William Woody: Another witness to a military cordon thrown up up north of town along the main highway, blocking access to the west. Click on name for Woody's affidavit. Lydia Sleppy: Albuquerque teletype operator and one of earliest witnesses. Stated that the story phoned in from field by Roswell radio reporter Johnny McBoyle about seeing the crashed saucer and hearing of bodies was intercepted and cut-off on the teletype wire by the FBI. Loretta Proctor: Neighbor of rancher Mack Brazel. Brazel told her and her husband of finding strange material before going to Roswell, and showing them a wood-like piece that couldn't be cut or burned. They advised him to go to Roswell and report it. Brazel was detained at the base and complained bitterly of his treatment when he returned. New! See debris descripions for more testimony. Sally Strickland Tadolini: Another neighbor of Brazel's. Although only 9 years old at the time, remembered Mack Brazel's grown son Bill Brazel bringing over a piece of metallic-looking debris with memory properties to show to her family (incident corroborated by her mother). Described it as tough, resembled a smooth "fabric" like silk or satin, and, of course, unfolded itself to its original shape after being crumpled up. Independently corroborated Bill Brazel's story of finding material and also Marcel's of a metallic fabric material with memory properties which he could blow through (therefore not balloon material). Also remembered the adults talking about Mack Brazel's bad treatment at hands of military. Dr. Jesse Marcel Jr.: 11-year old son of Major Marcel in 1947, recounts how his father woke up his mother and himself in the middle of the night when he returned from the debris field, showing them the pieces of a "flying saucer." Among other material, he distinctly remembers a small metallic "I-beam" with purplish "hieroglyphics." New! See also debris descriptions for more testimony. Irving Newton: Weather officer at Fort Worth used by Gen. Ramey to certify identity of weather balloon debris shown in Fort Worth photos. Newton's is a big-time skeptic and the Air Force used his affidavit to bolster their claim that Major Marcel found the remains Mogul balloon and misidentified it as coming from a flying saucer. However, Newton is only a witness to what was shown to him in Ramey's office, not what was found at Roswell. Both Col. Dubose and Marcel said the weather balloon was substituted for the real Roswell debris. Newton's disparaging remarks about Marcel's behavior in Gen. Ramey's office are contradicted by Marcel's record and Ramey's own highly complimentary remarks about him a year later. ROSWELL PROOF What really happened Telegram held in General Ramey's hand provides smoking gun proof of a "disk" crash and the recovery of "the victims of the wreck" Copyright ©2001 by David Rudiak Roswell Case Overview The Public "Roswell Incident" On July 8, 1947 at 5:26 EDT, an Associated Press news wire announced that Roswell Army Air Field had reported recovering a "flying disk" from a nearby rancher's property, first found "sometime last week," and that it was being flown to "higher headquarters." The curious base press release triggered a national press feeding frenzy. Later "higher headquarters" was announced to be Brig. Gen. Roger Ramey, head of the 8th Army Air Force at Fort Worth, Texas. The Roswell 509th Bomb Group was a subcommand of the 8th AAF. It was also announced that the recovered "disk" was eventually destined for Wright Field, Ohio, home of the Air Materiel Command and the AAF's aeronautical research labs. Within about an hour of the press release, Gen. Ramey began putting out an alternate weather balloon version of the story. And about two hours later, the photo at the above right was taken of Gen. Ramey (crouched down) and his Chief of Staff, Col. Thomas Dubose (seated). Ramey repeated his story that what was recovered at Roswell was nothing more than the remains of a weather balloon and its aluminum foil radar target kite shown displayed on the general's office floor. Later Ramey brought in a weather officer to make the identification official. The press bought the change of story. Just to make sure, the Army and Navy engaged in a debunking campaign during the following days which involved weather balloon and radar target demonstrations. The weather balloons, the public was told, explained not only what was found at Roswell, but also accounted for the numerous "flying disk" or "flying saucer" sightings that preceded the Roswell events. Air Force Changes Its Story This was the official story for the next 47 years until constituents asked Congressman Steven Schiff of New Mexico to look into it. After getting what he thought was the run-around from the Air Force, Schiff in 1994 asked the Congressional General Accounting Office (GAO) to investigate, forcing the Air Force to amend its old weather balloon story. Now it wasn't just any weather balloon. It was supposedly a top secret Mogul balloon made up of multiple weather balloons and radar targets and launched from nearby Alamogordo, N.M. Three years later, just in time for Roswell's 50th anniversary, one of the USAF counter- intelligence agents involved in the earlier report issued an additional "Case Closed" report on the stories of bodies being recovered. According to him, the reports of bodies were nothing more than highly distorted memories of "crash dummies" used in ejection tests carried out in New Mexico during the 1950's. FACTOID 2: Recent attempts by several investigators using the Freedom of Information Act to get a copy of the actual photoanalysis report cited by the Air Force (but never published) has met with responses that they have no idea what became of it. Read the details of the runaround the Air Force gave one investigator as they bounced him from archive to archive for the last 3 years. Why can't the Air Force find their own Roswell report? Why do they still refuse to disclose the identify of the photoanalysis lab? GEN. RAMEY'S MEMO FACTOID 1: The Air Force claimed in their 1994/95 Roswell Report that a government photoanalysis lab which they refused to identify ("a national level organization") was unable to "visualize" any "details" in the Ramey memo from first generation prints and negative copies even after digitizing (computer scanning) supposedly because of "insufficient quality." As you look at higher resolution scans readily available to civilians from similar prints, how much "truth" do you suspect was in the Air Force statement? Ramey Message Summary -- "Disk" and "Victims" found The message turns out to be a telegram from Gen. Ramey to the Pentagon and Gen. Hoyt Vandenberg, the acting AAF Chief of Staff at the time. Ramey is providing Vandenberg an update on the very fluid situation in-the-field at Roswell. The first paragraph describes what had been found. Ramey starts by acknowledging "THAT A 'DISK' IS NEXT NEW FIND." He then adds that "THE VICTIMS OF THE WRECK" and something else (possibly just "A WRECK") had also been found near the recovery "OPERATION AT THE 'RANCH'." At the end it states that "YOU" (i.e. Gen. Vandenberg) had ordered the "victims" and/or the wreckage "FORWARDED" to "FORT WORTH, TEX." In the second paragraph, Ramey describes how the situation was being handled. Ramey first states that something "IN THE 'DISC'", probably the bodies of the "forwarded" "victims" (and possibly termed "AVIATORS") would be flown by a B-29 Special Transport or C-47 to the "A1" (personnel director) of some "8TH ARMY****" division, most likely the head flight surgeon at Fort Worth given the context. Wright Field, Ohio, home of the AAF's aeronautical labs, was to assess the Roswell crash object (possibly referred to as an "AIRFOIL"). Finally Ramey outlines how the situation was being treated publicly and how they were going to cover it up. First he assures Vandenberg that the earlier highly inflammatory Roswell base press release (referred to as the "MISSTATE MEANING OF STORY") was the work of an Army counter-intelligence team ("CIC/TEAM"), but that the "NEXT SENT OUT PR" (Press Release) would be "OF WEATHER BALLOONS." Ramey finishes with the statement that the weather balloon story might be better accepted if they also added weather balloon radar target demonstrations. This apparently was the impetus for the national debunking campaign using the devices that followed over the next few days. The Ramey Message -- What really happened Barely noticeable in one of the 1947 photos and clutched in Gen. Ramey's left hand is a slip of paper (boxed in red). Probably unwittingly, Gen. Ramey had the text side facing towards the camera, allowing the text on this paper to be photographed. When blown up and analyzed, it tells a remarkably different story of events from the one Ramey or contemporary Air Force counter-intelligence wants you to believe. New! Canadian "Smoking Gun" Documents Actual 1947 Roswell ABC News radio bulletin Any Questions about whitnesses?
Skeptic Walker the evidence twords the crash of an alien space craft is far more credible than any evidence you have to disprove it.
Being that there is no physical evidence of a crashed flying saucer, there is no need to gather evidence to "disprove." It would be akin to gathering evidence to disprove the purple dragon that resides within my garage. You can't do that either, since every point of measurement you suggest is easily countered by me: the dragon is invisble, non-corporeal, etc. Your list of anecdotes above is meaningless. There are doubtless similar lists of "testimonials" for every wild or kooky idea from the effectiveness of prayer to the existence of bigfoot. From the reality of ESP to the idea that shark cartilage cures cancer. And so on. What drives these "witnesses" is their belief systems, not their critical thinking. Their statuses and positions within society are largely irrelevant.
So if I understand you corectly no matter what someone tells you even if it is the president of the United States you would not believe what thy have said unless they can hand you somthing to hold in your hands that you can measure. What you have to rember is that all arguments contain two elements to prove and to disprove. In this case the argument to prove fact is far grater than to disprove it. In the case of your purple dragon you have offered the proof that by your testimony the Purple Dragon only exiests in your mind and I am compeled to agree with your argument. The key is to be objective and not to egnore arguments on both side of an issue. When the arguments aginst the Roswell incedent are dissmised as false information you have no choice as to look at the prevailing side of the argument. It is the job of a Skeptic to be a non believer, as in this case a true Skeptic would not believe even if an Alien Spacecraft landed on the head of the Skeptic. The fact is the testimony of Credible whitnesses can not be dismised for it is considered Credible. So I present this to you in the form of Credible Fact. You have given me no credible facts against the case you have only provided anadodical general statements. If you are to disprove Roswell incident of 1947 you will have to be more creative than a Purple Dragon in your Garage.
