# U$ecology dramatically altered by fertilizers and acid rain... Discussion in 'Earth Science' started by wet1, Jan 27, 2002. 1. ### wet1WandererRegistered Senior Member Messages: 8,616 Now I am really speechless. From sadness!!! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! When I read the post from Justagirl, I have the urge to go and kill the government of the U$ at once. It doesn't solve anything though, for the Americans live on, their daily life. Head in the sand, like always.

A month ago or so I had email information about skin rash which was raging in different states. Nobody knew where it came from. Doctors said it was harmless, it showed up in a lot of states. Wish I had saved those emails.

Then there are the chem-trails in the Sky and the trails of little particles they leave behind on the porches of peoples houses. More and more voices speak about the obnoxious(?) feelings they get and how ill they get when exposed to the chem-particles during an amount of time. The last word about this is not said in a long run.

And so it goes on and on. It gets worse and worse. Not only in the U$no, big part of the pollution is caused by the U$ and you know it! D**N!

It has to stop! If it's not already too late...!

I quit with this. Now I get sick from it.
People, dig your heads up, from under the thick layer of sand you dug it in...

3. ### justagirlRegistered Senior Member

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Originally posted by TruthSeeker
All this information you gave... Really... I don't really think all this information is true...
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Really, Edufer. Please stop trying to clutter TruthSeekers brilliant orations with somthing so trivial as facts.

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His links to the facts wouldn't open for me. It might be my PC as it has been acting funny recently but those links have not opened for me .

5. ### justagirlRegistered Senior Member

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Once you get hold of any, then you must compare both informations with universally accepted facts (as scientific facts --not "factoids"-- physics, chemistry, biology, physiology, etc.) And this is a tremendous job! It will take most of your time to check the accuracy and seriousness of all information you get. If you do it well, you won't have time to dinner or sleep, let aside go to work. In my case, my job in FAEC (Argentine Foundation for Scientific Ecology) is doing precisely this: check the information and, as we say, try to discover where the cat is hidden.

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Oh I agree and I don't work as I found it suppressive to me( I worked for a Top 5 Fortune company that supressed the truth about a lot of things and had Congress in it's back pocket) and just retired at 39. I am single with no children so I can spend my days reading and learning and normally do.

7. ### EduferTired warriorRegistered Senior Member

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Truthseeker: where have you been seeking for the thruth? You have seen a lot of pollution. Maybe you didn´t travel far enough away from your city. I have traveled ALL South America, from Tierra del Fuego to the Darien strait, from west coast to East coast, and I assure you I have seen only small spots of pollution, always centered in big cities as Buenos Aires, Sao Paulo, Rio, Caracas, Santiago de Chile, etc. I have lived among indians in the amazon, and found how destructive to the environment they can be --only if they were more.

I wont argue about the truth in the information I gave you. that's something you have to do. Choosing to Ignore the facts is the Ostrich syndrome; hide your head in the sand and keep beliving in your own misinformed knowledge. (By the way, ostrich hiding their head in the sand is another popular myth, and I have to point it out for you because our mission in FAEC is to debunk myths.

So make your homework: go to these sites and check nuclear facts for yourself:

Argonne National Laboratory
Lawrence National Laboratory
Los Alamos National Laboratory
Oak Ridge National Laboratory
Sandia National Laboratory
U.S. Office of Science
Nuclear Regulatory Commission
Nuclear Power: Energy for Today and Tomorrow
Michael Fumento's mythbuster articles

And these are only a small fraction of sites where you could seek for the truth. Truth is a two sided coin; be brave and dare to visit the otehr side...

And please, search in Google with "AECL" to find many pages and articles relating AECL. By the way, I worked at AECL while they were building our nuclear reactor in Cordoba, Argentina (Embalse nuclear plant) as head of the Technical Translations Dept. It is supposed I know about nuclear matters...

Have fun!

8. ### EduferTired warriorRegistered Senior Member

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Justagirl, you don'l look like <b>"just a girl"</b>. It seems you have a sensible spirit, but it would be nice if you compared the information from different sources under the light of serious science.

I am sorry, but I couldn't find the informatin about the "two recorded deaths attributed to PCBs" in the link you gave (Fox River Watch). Maybe my sight is decreasing or my skills in English reading are not good enough. The only death attributed to PCB found on Fox River Watch website are these:

<b>"1970: Campbell’s Soup Company had to slaughter 146,000 chickens after detecting high levels of PCBs in chickens raised in New York State. --- 1971: Monsanto destroyed another 88,000 chickens in North Carolina because a PCB leak from a heating system had contaminated the feed.</B>

The picture of a child with a skin rash is not beautiful. Chloroacne is not beautiful, but it is not deadly. It cures in a week or so. It was the misinformation that urged former (and deceased) Minister of Prevention of Environmental Disasters of France, the scientist Haroum Tazieff jump aboard the wagon of "brownlashers" or eco-myths debunkers. Let's hear what he said in his Foreword to the book "The Holes in the Ozone Scare", by Rogelio Maduro: (bold emphasis added by me).

<i>"I had believed in what was thus universally and imperatively affirmed as incontestable truth: that PCBs, and the dioxins they emit when heated to 300°Celsius, were frigthful poisons. One or two years of this propaganda had led government officials --just as incompetent as I was in matters of polychlorobiphenils-- to make them officially illegal."

"A half dozn years later, I found myself responsible for the prvention of disasters, natural and technological disasters for the French government. ... As for technological disasters, <b...>it was necessary to inform myself.</B> The very first dossier I asked to have delivered to me was --so much I had been convinced of the extreme hazard of PCBs-- was the one on the explosion at the chemical plant in Sevezo, Italy, in July 1976. The study of this dossier and the inquest Ied at the time revealed to me, first of all, that this so-called catastrophe <B>had not one single victim.</B>

Second, I learned that dioxins, according to the judgement of ALL the actual experts consulted (and the very knowledgeable Academy of Science), are not at all "frightful" and have never, anywhere, killed anyone."

"Thus, the matter of presenting the industrial accident at the IMECSA factory in Sevezo as an apocaplyptic catastrophe was <B>a matter of deliberate disinformation</B> --in less diplomatic language was what one calls a LIE. ... The production and commercialization of PCBs was coming to an end. These substances, used as dielectrics, whose extraordinary qualities of chemical stability, <b>nontoxicity</B>, nonflammability, and nonexplosivity explain why they were being used by the entire world, with annual benefits that figure in billions of dollars... As for the billions of dollars involved in the destruction of PCBs --which is by now has become obligatory-- and the cost of their replacement, this bill will be paid by the consumers and taxpayers --for that matter without their knowledge. If by chance they are informed of it, they do not rebel, since it is a question of "defending the planet".</I>

And Tazieff finish his Foreword with these words: <i>"Here I have summarized the quite solitary path that I followed in discovering thet the catastrophes announced by great blowing of trumpets are no more than windmills for naive ecologists to tilt at. After I took my stand, first in a little book published in 1989, then in public debates and radio and television appearances, I had the surprise --oh, how pleasant-- of receiveing the approbation of numerous scientists, especially specialists in these matters. On the other hand, I have attracted innumerable enemies, some naive and some from certain people of doubtful honesty. But a small number of friends of quality is worth more than a bunch of fans or a bunch of foes."</i> Signed: <b>Haroum Tazieff</b>.

One thing people should know is how lab test are conducted for determining toxicity and carcinogenicity: feed rodents with huge (sub letahl doses) of the suspected chemical. According to studies made by Dr. Bruce Ames at University of California at Berkeley, show this technique will induce "mitogenesis", an uncontrolled cell growth (normally known as cancer). But when the rats are fed the chemical with doses at levels found in the environment, the results are negative.

Moreover, when they tried to blame BHT (buto-hidroxy-toluidine, a preservative used on bread and butter) of being carcinogenic, the tests concluded that rats fed with BHT lived twice as much as the control rats! So no wonder this appears in the Fox river website:

<i>Testimony about the IBT Labs scandal in a Texas lawsuit against Monsanto indicates that IBT was aware that PCBs caused extremely high numbers of tumors in test rats, with 82 percent developing tumors when fed Aroclor 1254 at 10 parts per million and 100 percent at 100 parts per million. Yet IBT Labs certified PCBs a noncarcinogen"</I> Why? Because when rats were fed with dose levels found in the environment, the results were negative.

Quote: <i>" Diseases caused by environmental degradation kill one in five children before age five in the poorest areas of the world,"</i>

Indeed, it happens in poor countries, where they have not the money for aplying modern technologies for preventing or the cleanup of their pollution. Don´t blame it on the pollution but blame it on the neocolonial status imposed on them by the Seven Big industrialized countries that have their skies cleaner now than fifty years ago. Let's be honest, guys, MONEY TALKS. And the conditions imposed on those countries by the IMF are designed for stopping their industrial developing and tecnological advance. Greed talks trough Malthus' mouth...

9. ### justagirlRegistered Senior Member

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I am sorry, but I couldn't find the informatin about the "two recorded deaths attributed to PCBs" in the link you gave (Fox River Watch

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There was a lot of data on that page but they are in 1937 to help locate them.

I am going to make a brief responce as today I have to do some things around here. Some of your points are well stated and I can't dispute them. The lab test do have a way of distorting the facts but lab test can't erase actual deaths. Many companies have been sued and lost the lawsuit over the use of environmental hazards. Some were probably a wrong judgement but I am able to find many that seemed to be flagrant and did kill the environment. I can't ignore those kinds of facts. Those are real facts and not an opinion.

Use of energy is a real problem in the world as the logical choices seem to be hydro and solar. Hydro needs a natural source as we know it now but I think a manmade hydro source is very possible. Solar power still needs to be improved but can help "some". A government faced with money "Issues" has to look at coal or gas if they have it as a natural resource.

The cost of food will go up if the farmers went back to using natural fertilizer as it isn't as effective. The fertilizers are good about not harming the crops they were designed for but sadly they get washed away and can cause problems elsewhere. The world is full of tough choices on how to provide jobs, food, water, and energy. But I feel instead of fighting the facts of actual deaths and the slaughter of marine life that science should be more concerned over finding new and better ways. But what is happening in our world is the economy and governments are fueld by money and some "real" hard choices have to be made. Most of the time I can show prejudice on any claim for or against unless it's actual deaths which happens at times.
I don't claim to know the answers because if we DID make all of our choices based on the environment the world would have a whole new set of "real" problems. That's the real cause of the debate as companies and countries need to back up their choices and don't have the time to wait for something new. Don't have the funds to go a better way. Bottom line "money" and politics are slowly hurting the environment. The largest river close to me is unfit for fishing. Many stories like that across the United States. That is facts and not an opinion.

10. ### EduferTired warriorRegistered Senior Member

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The truth seems to be getting closer...

Quote from "The History of PCBs" (Fox River Watch):

"In 1936 three workers at the Halowax Company died. Autopsies of two revealed severe liver damage. ... One man died and the diagnosis may have attributed his death to halowax vapors, but we are not sure of that...."

Did the autopsies revealed the real cause of death? They don't say. The autopsies sureley also showed the men had prostate cancer developing, and PCBs can not blamed for that. So this case is quite vague, as is the second case were "... the diagnosis may have attributed his death to halowax vapors, but we are not sure of that....". If they were not sure, why blame PCBs. Guilts and accusations must be based on factual evidence. We don't know if those men died of pneumonia or a car accident, or stroke or a heart attack. Based on what is posted in the article, the accusation is based on flimsy evidence --although it could have been caused by PCBs, the medical history does not have a record of <b>deaths</B> attributable to PCBs. Epidemiological studies are a difficult job to perform.

I would like very much if you take a brief look at this article on our website at FAEC, that will give you an idea about the difficulties in performing epidemiological studies in order to discover the causes for any disease:

<A HREF=http://mitosyfraudes.8k.com/INGLES\Epide.html>How to Understand Scientific Studies and Epidemiology</A>

On the whole, I agree with you on what you say in your last post, because it sounds reasonable. It is also my belief that we must take care of the environment and make anything possible to keep the aire, water, oceans, and land clean. There is a lot of pollution done, but I also believe that we have been detecting and correcting it. We have learned a lot, we have made great technological advances that are useful for keeping the woprld clean. There are abuses, yes, and it is our task to stop them and make sure they are not commited again.

But I don't think that banning useful chemicals, pesticides, and fertilizers is the way to do it, especially if there is a lot of evidence that the problem is being highly overestimated and grossly exagerated (as the case of DDT, PCBs, CFs, lead in gasolines, etc). Of course, you may disagree with me, but that is a risk I can accept without enraging myself, as Banshee seems to do when somebody contradicts him.

We´ll keep this amicable discussion later. Have fun!

11. ### goofyfishAnalog By Birth, Digital By DesignValued Senior Member

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Are the harmful effects of PCB's and Dioxins exaggerated? Possibly, as both sides spin the data to uphold their view. The problem, I think, is that dioxins produce a wide spectrum of biochemical and toxic effects in experimental animals, and these effects depend on species, strain, gender, age and tissue. For the most part, the mechanisms of these impacts are still obscure, which hampers rational risk assessment.

A wide variety of health effects in humans have been linked to high exposure to dioxins, including mood alterations, reduced cognitive performance, diabetes, changes in white blood cells, dental defects, endometriosis, decreased male/female ratio of births and decreased testosterone levels. Presently the effects have been proven only in the case of chloracne. Another concern is the possible developmental effects. There is some data that dioxin exposure from breast milk is associated with abnormal development and "mineralization" of teeth.

My problem with chlorinated compounds in the body is that our body is not able to metabolize them and, because they are fat-soluble and practically not at all water-soluble, they cannot be excreted in urine. So they can accumulate in our body over decades, even at a low exposure. I think it is important that the levels of these compounds in our food be minimized. It has been suggested that the accumulation in the human system is so slow that it would take 40 to 50 years to reach critical levels. Possibly true; has there been a serious study by either side for such an extended period?

My vote is to err on the side of caution.

Peace.

12. ### wet1WandererRegistered Senior Member

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8,616
As it happens an enormous amount of our food is directly and indirectly possible to produce only because of the cultivation of corn (maize)...The percentage may be high as 75%. Then there are the industrial products we can make because of corn. The implications are unthinkable.

It sounds like genetically modified corn has proliferated to such an extent since 1994 that original strains of corn are virtually impossible to grow without specialized technology. These genetic changes in corn could produce nearly unthinkable changes.

Earthquakes and volcanoes are most likely not life-threatening to the planet. Nuclear, biological and chemical components of modern civilization are the sources of devastation to this world. The real threat we are facing is the byproducts of the civilization we have created that has the potential to alter all life forms on this planet. This has been done with the implicit and explicit agreement of every man and woman who opens a plastic bottle without thinking of the long-term consequences of plastic -- which produces an over-abundance of estrogen and other problems -- for the sake of immediate convenience.

The world as we have known it has changed! In a few more generations, the difficulty in obtaining a high functioning body in which to incarnate on this planet will be unfathomable to most people. Badly damaged genetics will result in the majority of survivors going back to caves.

This is a done deal at this point, and the majority, who will start back up the evolutionary ladder in future incarnations, ignored the warnings when the curve could have been easily changed.

The earliest messages warned of damage being done to the environment by nuclear technology back in 1950. Rather than listen to the message about the dangers, the majority ignored obvious evidence and ignored the implications of the messages about environmental contamination.

President Eisenhower's farewell speech warned that the military-industrial complex posed the most dangerous threat to the American way of life. Not only did messages warn about the advancing line of technology on this planet, but an American president also warned of the dangers of the military-industrial complex.

What do you do when a large number of people don't want to hear a message repeated at great expense to a few people, who were threatened with financial and political ruin and social ostracism for delivering the message?

There are no innocent victims in this situation. The presently dangerous situation has been created by the consuming public who has kept the military-industrial complex thriving. We all have in common Homo sapien bodies for which we have battled to win human rights for centuries.

Beyond the shared body form, there are vast differences in awareness, knowledge and destiny among us. Each will inherit the destiny created from the awareness and knowledge manifest in the journey of life on Earth.

Please check out http://www.fao.org to see the United Nations site on Food and Agriculture.

13. ### EduferTired warriorRegistered Senior Member

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You are right, but the whole truth must be said: the effects vary according to species (a miligram of dioxin is instantaneously lethal to hamsters, but you need hundred times more to notice any effect on a rat, and thousand more to make an effect on humans. What we must take into account is that dioxin levels normally found in our environment is minimal and barely affect humans or higher animals. As many toxicologists insist on pointing out, the harmful effects become noticeable in animals under lab test, given huge amounts of dioxin (or other toxic substances) in doses know as MTD (or Maximum Tolerated Dose), that is, a sub-lethal dose that won't cause the instant death of the animal being tested.

Again, the problem lies on <b>"linked to high exposures"</b>... that is, there is no scientific evidence that this is an established fact. As you state, only chloroacne has been an established (and accepted) fact. Also abounds the claims as "the possible ... effects", or "there is some data that suggest", or "it is believed that", or "it seems associated with", etc., a wide variety of claims in potencial tense. White is white, and black is black, and don´t try to confuse people who have not the scientific or technical knowledge with "white could be black" (without saying that only if there is no light to see the colors)"

So, how do you explain the fact that about 80% of remedies and medicins are "hydrochlorates"? Most generic medical substances come in the form of hydrochlorates (I am taking "ervastatin hydrochlorate" -Lipitor- for reducing cholesterol, and most antihistaminics are hydrochlorates. Nobody seems to feel adverse effects from medicins (leave aside overdoses), so we arrive at the Golden Axiom of Toxicology: <b>"The Dose is the Poison"</b>. Theophilus Bombastus von Hohenheim (better known as Paracelsus) said back in the 16th century: <i>"Everything is poison, and nothing is poison; only the dose makes the poison"</i>.

You seem to be in favor of the infamous "Precautionary Principle". Life on Earth is for the brave of spirit; history shows that timids and cowards are rapidly erased from the surface of Earth. As I said before, had mankind applied the "precautionary principle" from the beginning, we would still be hanging from tree branches looking down on fierceful tigers and lions.

And, of course Peace. But what is Peace? Peace has different meanings to different people. To me "peace" is to live without worries, gardening my backyard. But when there comes somebody telling me I can´t use herbicides on my orchard or else I'll go to jail, that is not peace... that means war. Or I can't use water for irrigating my farm because a species of fish will be "endangered", that is violence imposed on me. That means war. If not, take a look at Klamath (?) county...

Now, really, peace for all.

14. ### EduferTired warriorRegistered Senior Member

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This is for Banshee

This has nothing to do with the subject being discussed, but since you are here, I would like to know your opinion about your next Queen, Princess Maxima Zorreguieta, an Argentinian as myself...

Also, what do you think about the fact that her father was banned from the wedding ceremony because he was Secretary of Agriculture during the government of President Jorge Videla, back in 1976, when we sucessfully got rid of the communist guerrilla (ERP) in Argentina?

I know that Dutch people has a long history of hating dictators, but there is something that doesn't fit in the picture: why an obscure secretary of agriculture in a forgotten country was not permitted to atend the wedding of his daughter, but Prince Bernhard, Queen Juliana's husband, was at the ceremony?

15. ### TruthSeekerFancy Virtual Reality MonkeyValued Senior Member

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15,162
Edufer,

I don't need to!!
The whole city is polluted... and there are only cars and other vehicles! We not even have factories!

Another thing... I traveled to many polluted places. Napoli, for example. I couldn't breath there! And the pollution made the air really hot... i could even see the sky all brown in Napoli, when I went to Capri...

Another place: Milan. I didn't even needed to get out of the airport to see the pollution. It was raining and it was everything brown and gray...

Venice, pollution of water... London air... etc...

There are lots of other examples that I saw thorugh TV, like garbage... but I guess this is enough...

Are you kidding? What did they do...?

Little misinformation...

As you see... I'm NOW in Canada...
Look clearly when you are reading the Truth... otherwise it can pass directly through you and you don't see it...
I'm from Brazil...

Btw... much better wait for fuson...

Fuson will be better than those nuclear plants...

And those nuclear plants will soon be discardable (do you have this word? We have somewhat in Portuguese...)

PS: Do you speak Portuguese??

I totally agree with Banshee. The whole post...

Love,
Nelson

16. ### justagirlRegistered Senior Member

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334
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In 1936 three workers at the Halowax Company died. Autopsies of two revealed severe liver damage. ... One man died and the diagnosis may have attributed his death to halowax vapors, but we are not sure of that...."

Did the autopsies revealed the real cause of death? They don't say. The autopsies sureley also showed the men had prostate cancer developing, and PCBs can not blamed for that
although it could have been caused by PCBs, the medical history does not have a record of deaths attributable to PCBs. Epidemiological studies are a difficult job to perform

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Using that logic one could say "AIDS" doesn't kill as AIDS is never shown on the birth certificate as the cause od death and we could always say "well, they were gonna dia anyways"

Last edited: Mar 27, 2002
17. ### wet1WandererRegistered Senior Member

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8,616
Man found with 47 arrows in body. Sheriff says suicide...

18. ### justagirlRegistered Senior Member

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LOL....

Yes, your Honor I shot that man 6 times but I didn't kill him as I will prove he was gonna die in 2 to 5 years from lung cancer anyways...

19. ### wet1WandererRegistered Senior Member

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Edufer...Especially for you...

*why an obscure secretary of agriculture in a forgotten country was not permitted to atend the wedding of his daughter, but Prince Bernhard, Queen Juliana's husband, was at the ceremony?*

I disagree with the decision made that the father of the bride was not allowed to be at his daughters wedding. No matter what he's done before, it's his daughter, so he should have been there. Satisfied???

Then we can go back on topic. For a discussion on this wedding I have to direct you to the Dutch Forum of SETI, in Dutch, for it's a Dutch Forum, situated in the Netherlands. You can always enter the chat room if you want and tell them you speak English. They will immediately change their talk into English. Enjoy...

www.seti.nl

Click on communicatie and then on chat...

20. ### EduferTired warriorRegistered Senior Member

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Nelson, garoto...

Nelson (Piquet?): meu chapa, acho que eu ainda falo Portugues bastante bem—morei in Manaus, Rio, Sao Paulo, Santos por meses e tomo mias ferias en Florianopolis (Canasvieiras) todos os anos (meu teclado es para espanhol, de modo que nao se como usar todos os signos e acentos Portugueses; sepa disculpar) mais mihna escritura e gramatica nao e muito boa, é ruim!. Eu escribo a meus amigos en Espanhol e recebo seus emails en Portugues.

Eu fiz uma expedicao (falta cedilla, reemplazo con "c,") no Amazonas en 1971 (Janeiro  Junho) e pegue um curso de Supervivenc,a na Selva e Ac,oes de Commando no COSAC en Manaus (Centro de Instrucc,ao de Guerra na Selva e Ac,oes de Commando, o velho CIGS), por invitac,ao especial do Exercito Brasilero. (Eu era reportero especial da revista Siete Dias de Buenos Aires, e estaba filmando una documentaria en 16 mm). Teve de camarada de viagem e interprete ao Major (agora Brigadeiro retirado) Roberto Guaranys, sub-chefe do ParaSAR (Busqueda e Salvamento da FAB).

Sempre conte con a muito prezada ajuda do governo Brasilero que teve a gentileza de enviarme a cualquer parte do Amazonas nos avioes da FAB. Dai que eu aprendi a amar ao Brasil, sua gente, sua selva e seus indios --mais no por iso deixo de reconhecer os defeitos que eles tem... eles sao so seres humanos como nos. Ninguem e perfeito.

Acordo con voce: os reactores de fusion sao el futuro do mundo. Pero os reactores de fisao de hoje tem una seguridade incrível e una eficiencia elevadíssima. Perdao por la ortografía.
Voce fala Espahnol? Pero é melhor si o bate papo continua en Inglés... os outros nao entenderán nada!

Um abrac,o

Eduardo Ferreyra(Edu-fer)

21. ### EduferTired warriorRegistered Senior Member

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AIDS is another topic I would like to discuss because lots of evidence makes it another exaggerated issue. As this could be a long discussion, I will only point to you some facts not well known to the general public, or even to most scientists, and are related not with the medical side of AIDS, but with statistics --the most elegant way of lying, as I said before.

Dr. Eduardo Leschot, an Argentinian doctor, spent several months in Africa (in 1996) doing an intensive research on the subject. He gathered blood samples from 5,000 prostitutes in Timbuktu (supposedly the most exposed persons to HIV) and run the serum test on them. The rate of <b>HIV serum positive was 60%</B>, the same as it is claimed for Central and South African population (south of the Sahel). Then he took the 5,000 samples and checked them under the electron miscroscope, the only way you can "see" if the HIV virus is actually present in the blood. The results gave <b>a 5% infection rate</b> among prostitutes in Timbuktu.

Why this discrepancy with the serum HIV tests? Simply because malaria carriers <b>always give FALSE POSITIVE results to the HIV serum tests.</b> When you get to know that people south of the Sahel have a rate of malaria of 60%, including the 5,000 prostitutes of the study, the matter gets clearer. Then go north of the Sahel, to Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, Egypt, etc, and you find the HIV serum positive tests range <b>in the order of 3 to 5%</b>. Look at the malaria cases in the region, and you find the same percentage. No malaria carriers, no HIV false positives.

This side of the question is profitted by corrupt African governments (all of them are corrupt). They see how scared the Europeans and Americans are from AIDS and they say: <i>"Give us money, so we can fight this horrible threat that will eventually kill you all"</i>. And a cataract of money flows into African governments trunks (first) and then this money goes right to Swiss Bank accounts (later).

You must have heard about Dr. Peter Duesberg, the scientist that discovered the retrovirus, back in the early 70s. He was declared the Scientisst of the Year then. Now he is been despised by the scientific establishment because he insists that HIV has nothing to do with AIDS. He says the problem lies in another unknown side of the subject, and challenged is adversaries: he would gladly inject himself the HIV virus to prove he he's right. The government wouldn't allow him to do it: <b>what if he is right?</b> Where will all the billions "invested" in research go? The faucet of money cannot be shut down! The industry of AIDS research --looking for a vaccine they know they will never discover sees Duesberg as a horrible threat. It would be stupid to kill the hen of the golden eggs...

Then, what are the reasons for the miraculous cure of Magic Johnson, the NBA superstar? He had a positive HIV back in 1990; a few years later he had negative tests, one after another, without having had any medical treatment for HIV. And Johnson is not the only case. There are thousands of recorded cases of cures like that, and thousand recorded cases of people who have been infected with HIV for more than 20 years and don´t have any sign of AIDS.

What Duesberg and others say is that the most probably cause for the inhibition of the inmune system shown by AIDS pacients <b>is caused mainly by stress</b>. They keep pointing that stress has been totally proven to decrease defenses and lower the hability of the inmune system to make antibodies and defenses. They also point out that the main risk group remains to be homosexuals, drug addicts and people in extreme poverty. The stress experienced by these groups cannot be denied, and this could be the main cause of their diminished inmune system.

That seems to be reasonable, because when a person knows it has a positive HIV, goes into a state of extreme anguish, fear, and continuous stress that helps the virus to overwhelm the diminished defenses. The big alarm and steady propaganda on the seriousness and mortatlity of the disease have created a state of neurosis in the population that is now bordering paranoia. And that does not help to keep the inmune system in good working conditions.

A parallel can be traced with the Chernobyl nuclear neurosis that provoked more damage in the minds of the Russian population than the actual radioactivity (that, according to studies shown in the international 1996 conference <i>"One Decade After Chernobyl--Summing Up the Consequences",</i> held in Viena, Austria, where thousand s of scientists all over the world gathered for a week to analyze all studies made on the subject. As stated by Dr. Zbigniew Jaworoski, former head of the UNSCEAR <i>(United Nations Scientific Committee for the Study of Atomic Radiations</i>) in his long and well supported article in <A HREF=http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com>21st Century Science & Technology</A> magazine, (Spring, 1996, Vol. 11, No. 1, pp. 14-25):

<font color="#0000ff"><i>"Therefore, it should not be surprising that <b>no increase in the incidence of solid cancers, leukemias, or hereditary diseases</b> that might be caused by the whole-body doses of Chenobyl radiation, was detected in the population of the former Soviet Union and elsewhere."

"Psychosomatic consequences, on the other hand, appeared in great numbers of the inhabitants of contaminated regions in Belarus, Ukraine, and Russia. The causes of these psychosomatic consequences was not radiation, or any other physical factor, <b>but hysterical radiofobia, induced by the mass media and improper regulatory policies,</b> based on the no-threshold hypothesis and ICRP recommendations". </i></font>

Just replace the word <b>"radiofobia"</b> with <b>"AIDSfobia"</b> and you have a clear picture. In this mass media world, where the press is behaving in an irresponsible way --in its own selfish and greedy benefit-- the unaware citizen is subjected to a deluge of misinformation and scared to death from anything that the media says it is "suspicious". Those who know the facts, don´t feel afraid. <b>They are dangerous people for the System:</b> it is difficult to take their money away from them, but, worse yet, they keep spreading the truth and take away fears from other people that had been contributing with their money (in the form of taxes or donations to NGOs). They are spoiling the business. They have to go. So, all skeptical scientists are sentenced to "press silence", while scaremongers are given full coverage. Then the <i>"science-by-press-releases"</i> take the place of <i>"real-hard-facts-science"</i> for the sake of the Big Business, or for Geopolitical reasons, the Biggest Business of Them All. We are living in hard times. <font color="#ff0000"><b>Only the knowledge can keep us safe. Only the Truth will make us Free.</b></font> Hope so...

22. ### EduferTired warriorRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
791
Oh, c´mon, Banshee! Who told you that?!! Greenpeace? My nephew crops 1200 hectares of soybean (GM), no fertilizers, no pesticides or herbicides. as this strain of soybean is resistant to insects and weeds. But we also grow five hectares (for family use) of the quite old "nice-tasting" sweet corn variety (white corn, known locally as "choclo". It is delicious with butter and salt.)

And wherever I go in Bolivia, I find in the markets an astonishing variety of corns, from the small grained, to the big violet color grained. I have personally seen not less than thirty varieties of ancient strains of corn in Argentina, Uruguay, Brazil, Bolivia, Perú, Ecuador, Colombia, and Venezuela (where I have been), and go no farther than Mexico to find much more varieties!

And poor people in our countries have not specialized technology at all!!! Corn is one of their most basic foods. As we say, somebody gave you "rotten meat" to digest! Next time, check the facts.

Give my regards to Princess Máxima!

23. ### justagirlRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
334
The world, history, and my entry on this thread prove that pollution kills. The only debate that can be left is at what level it kills. For you or any man to ignore the deaths and say that is a lie has motivations tied to money. You are not willing to add pesticides to your diet to prove they don't kill. You will not add any of the chemicals into your diet to prove they won't kill as you know damn full well they can kill. Once upon time in North America the population thought tomatoes would kill. A man proved it was wrong by eating it in town daily. If you want to debate what level it kills, I am willing to debate, but if you still want to deny pollution kills I am going to start posting proof every day of pollution killing worldwide.