Two Propulsions of Electricity and Compressed-air for a Hybrid Car

Discussion in 'Architecture & Engineering' started by M. Mansouryar, Oct 29, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. M. Mansouryar Registered Senior Member

    Hello everybody. I've worked on a plan of a hybrid car for about a year. My intention was to help the environment. I started a review on the existing possibilities and I found out the electric vehicles are interesting options. So I focused on removing their disadvantages and I reached to the present document. I hope to improve it by the help of experts. Also I like a company or person would determine to build it; because I cannot by myself. I'm just a man of theory without any equipments. However, I will keep contacting to active companies about my plan with the hope of realizing it someday. If this plan would gain attention from the people who care about the environment and future of the planet, that would be a contribution of mine to the world.
    You can download my plan, a 60-pages PDF file from one of these links:

  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement

    to hide all adverts.
  3. MacGyver1968 Fixin' Shit that Ain't Broke Valued Senior Member

    7,028 7 of the world series is about to start, and I want to watch my Rangers. Could you please summarize you design. I skimmed your PDF, and saw some questionable charging through lightning strikes, or treadmills installed in the floor (how do you run while seated?)

    This too needs explanation:
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement

    to hide all adverts.
  5. MacGyver1968 Fixin' Shit that Ain't Broke Valued Senior Member

    Nevermind...don't bother answering. You spend 40 pages talking about things like extracting electricity from the sound of the voices of the passengers...but don't even explain how the compressed air system works.
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement

    to hide all adverts.
  7. M. Mansouryar Registered Senior Member

    Thanks for paying attention to my work. It's the result of about one year thinking, so that can't be so simple and empty of details. To read its summary, you can read the abstract, and to know more, you can read the introduction, i.e., the first 4 pages. There is nothing about the "lightning strikes" in my paper. Also, I've pointed out running on the treadmill is forbidden, when the car is moving, for safety reasons.
    Actually, this is the core of the paper, containing many important points. To see an explanation, one needs to read the pages 29-39. If there is anything to know more, feel free to question me.
    There is no need to such a hurry, dude. We are not making a race and here is not an instant messenger board. One could keep a debate in these forums for weeks, months, or even years. I think the goal in here is finding the truth, so forgive me for not replying so fast, I was asleep.
    Anyway, the compressed-air system is an interesting idea, there are some cool clips about it, you can youtube them by those keywords, plus trying "air car". It's not limited to the cars:
    However, using such a propulsion for a car, has badly drawn my attention:
    I referred to the above wiki article in my paper as well.
  8. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

    Non-sequitur alert!
  9. MacGyver1968 Fixin' Shit that Ain't Broke Valued Senior Member

    Sorry...I misinterpreted this:
    To mean you planned on using lightning to charge the ev.
    Unfortunately, the wording of your paper is not very clear, so I found it difficult to understand exactly what you were trying to explain in some cases. I think you are seriously overestimating the amount of current that could be produced from many of your secondary charging systems. It takes large amounts of power to move a car....10's of thousands of watts. Many of the charging systems you propose, like converting the sound inside the car to electricity, or using treadmills or hand cranks to charge the batteries could produce a few milliwatts or 10's of watts at best. It's like gluing butterflies to the wing of an airplane to increase the lift.

    Edit: Let's look at some numbers. An "in shape" human can generate around 3 watts/kg...that's somewhere around 200 watts total. The Chevy volt uses a 16kw/h battery. After an hour on the treadmill, you would produce .2 kw/h worth of charge to the battery.
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2011
  10. M. Mansouryar Registered Senior Member

    Sorry, English is not my first language.
    All of the charging methods are not in an equal level.
    To save the time for all of us, let me inform about another thread with the same title that I started some days ago:
    I suggest you please take a look at the discussions in there (only 16 posts by now). I hoped to see different feedbacks in this forum. If you would not find your answers in there, please question me in here (or there), and I will reply. Please don't interpret negatively on addressing another forum, I just wanted to save time & energy, like what I did in my car plan!
  11. Diode-Man Awesome User Title Registered Senior Member

    lol good god!
  12. scifes heckle the snobs Valued Senior Member

    op, i have some advice for you, make a table of all the methods you propose to generate electrical input to your car, and find out their maximum wattage, and add them, you'll be surprised

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    what level of education do you have?(if you don't mind me asking)
  13. scifes heckle the snobs Valued Senior Member

    actually, i've got a great idea!
    take your paper to the closest university to you, and go to the electrical engineering department or physics department, i'm sure a professor there would love to give this as a project to his students, because while it may be a little hard for normal people, it is relatively easy for anybody even remotely relevant to the field, it does NOT require simulations or software or companies as you think, just an internet connection and an excel sheet(or paper, pencil and calculator)..

    trust me and try this

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

  14. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Some problems with your document:

    You propose compressed air as an alternative storage medium and a way to cool the batteries. There are many problems with this.

    First is the energy density. Very high tech tanks can store 50wh/kg. Lithium ion batteries can store 200 wh/kg. Gasoline stores 6000 wh/kg. So if you replace lithium ion batteries with compressed air tanks, your range will be decreased by a factor of 4.

    (Super capacitors are even worse by the way - 30 wh/kg - so if you use any of them you're even worse off.)

    Second is thermal. As you compress air it gets very hot - hundreds of degrees C is not unusual. Putting them next to the batteries will make the batteries very, very hot. You can try to refrigerate the tanks to make them cooler, but that takes even more energy, and requires a heavy, high power refrigeration system. If you cool them you also lose much of the energy.

    Third is safety. Lithium ion batteries must be very well protected; physical damage can easily result in fire and/or explosion. Putting them next to a high pressure air source will increase the likelihood of fire and/or explosion.

    Oh, BTW I liked this:

    "It is suggested the car is equipped with a weighing system that measures the entering/exiting weight and announces it by loudspeaker. Therefore, after adding one individual to the passengers, it announces for example 80 kilograms has been added to the total weight . . ."

    . . . thus guaranteeing that no women will ever set foot inside such a vehicle.
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2011
  15. M. Mansouryar Registered Senior Member

    Good idea, about the table. I'd do it later, but this is a summary of my methods:
    Charging by the modified grid
    Output: It provides all the needs of the car in a greener fashion, but it takes a long time.
    Charging by the solar panels
    Output: About 240 Watts. Result: 14 km additional mileage in the sunny conditions.
    Charging by the bio-force:
    Output: About 200-300 Watts. Result: 13-15 km additional mileage in the ideal conditions.
    Charging by the solenoids electricity mechanism:
    Output: Unknown, my raw estimations more than 4 kw. It must offset more than 95% of car's weight and recover a considerable amount of consumed energy.
    Charging by the piezoelectricity:
    Output: Unknown, my raw estimations more than 2-3 kw. It uses the dead parts of the cars, never used before: the natural strain between the body and chassis.
    Charging by the thermoacoustic and thermoelectric effects:
    Output: Unknown, my raw estimations about 200-300 watts. Fit for ventilation of the passengers and some components.
    Charging by the hydraulic shock absorbers:
    Output: At least 1 kw. Up to 10 percents electricity storing. Pay attention to an article about two MIT students:
    They began by creating a simple hydraulic system, in which the shock absorber's piston pumps fluid to drive a hydraulic motor and a miniature electric-motor generator. The team's first prototype generated a total of 800 watts of continuous power with four shocks, and up to five kilowatts — about seven times as much as a typical car alternator produces — over nasty off-road terrain. They estimate that their next version could double the generating capacity, boosting fuel mileage on paved roads by 2 to 5 percent in commercial trucks and 6 percent in military vehicles, which when fully armored can slurp diesel at a dispiriting four to eight miles per gallon. Hybrids, which can store GenShock electricity in their batteries, would gain the most — up to 10 percent.
    Charging by the piezo-hydraulic-inductive spokes inside the tweels:
    Output: Unknown, my raw estimations about 2-3 kw.
    Let alone: A 60%-70% increase in fuel economy by hydraulic hybrid system; To reduce the fuel consumption about 12% by deactivating the motor cylinders or variable cylinders management (VCM); Regenerative braking increases the efficiency up to 20%; The reduction in consumption and emissions is as much as 8% in start/stop systems that switch off the internal combustion engine if the vehicle is stationary (applicable for the compressed-air systems well); Modifications in gearbox to help the fuel economy about 10%; and possibly other solutions …
    Now, who is surprised?
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2011
  16. M. Mansouryar Registered Senior Member

    I've quit the university to work on my former project. I don't want to talk about my past and why I decided to not get involved into that. It could have caused consequences that I didn't like, the weapons etc … however, I still believe my past project on the spacewarps could solve the energy & transportation problems in large scales … but I liked to experience another field: green driving …
    To know my past, take a look at these links:
    Thanks for your reply. I'll answer you soon. Just give me some time.
  17. billvon Valued Senior Member

    >Charging by the solar panels
    >Output: About 240 Watts. Result: 14 km additional mileage in the sunny conditions.

    Does this include the penalty imposed by the greater weight and thickness of the solar panel?

    >Charging by the bio-force:
    >Output: About 200-300 Watts. Result: 13-15 km additional mileage in the ideal conditions.

    Your average biker can put out about 100 watts over the time frames you are mentioning above (i.e. all day.) Of course, if he can do that - a bike is a lot cheaper.

    >Charging by the solenoids electricity mechanism:
    >Output: Unknown, my raw estimations more than 4 kw. It must offset more than 95% of car's weight and recover a considerable amount of consumed energy.

    If this is the "capture motion like a shaky flashlight" thing then that doesn't work. You'll generate zero power on smooth roads, and rough roads will require a lot more power to drive the car forward (it effectively increases drag.)

    >Charging by the piezoelectricity:
    >Output: Unknown, my raw estimations more than 2-3 kw. It uses the dead parts of the cars, never used before: the natural strain between the body and chassis.

    See above.

    >Charging by the thermoacoustic and thermoelectric effects:
    >Output: Unknown, my raw estimations about 200-300 watts. Fit >for ventilation of the passengers and some components.

    To get 300 watts you'd need a heat source inside and a very cold day outside. It would take a lot of fuel to provide that much heat.

    >Charging by the hydraulic shock absorbers:
    >Output: At least 1 kw. Up to 10 percents electricity storing.

    Again, you need a rough road to accomplish that.

    >To reduce the fuel consumption about 12% by deactivating the motor cylinders or variable cylinders management (VCM);

    Good idea; several car manufacturers use this already to improve mileage.

    >Regenerative braking increases the efficiency up to 20%;

    Another good idea. My car does this and it works well. (It's closer to 2-4% but every little bit helps, and it's free if you already have the motor.)

    >The reduction in consumption and emissions is as much as 8% in
    >start/stop systems that switch off the internal combustion engine if the
    >vehicle is stationary

    Also good. Both my cars do this.

    >(applicable for the compressed-air systems well);

    Do what? Turn off the engine when not moving? That's sort of a given, since compressed air engines do not need to idle.

    >Modifications in gearbox to help the fuel economy about 10%; and
    >possibly other solutions …

    Well, certainly not 10%, but simpler transmissions (i.e. the Prius PSD or any manual transmission) can definitely improve economy.
  18. M. Mansouryar Registered Senior Member

    My plan is using the compressed-air & electricity in the full hybrid manner:
    The goal of plan is helping the environment, so completely forget about the dirty gasoline. Surely, there are disadvantages about the compressed-air propulsion:
    However, we need to cope with them. This system is not so simple to say its range would be decreased by a factor of 4, compared to an ICE car. If the required power for the electric compressors would properly be provided while driving, it could give effective contributions to the powertrain of this car.
    That's not a serious obstacle. I want supercapacitors to receive the harvested electricity and give it to the needed components during a short time. They don't have to keep the charge for a long time, likewise they have not been designed for this purpose. They are not perfect, but could be so useful:
    With suitable applications:
    So don't put them next to the batteries! Also, don't compress air so fast. Insulate the compress-air tanks well and use an appropriate air-conditioning for them and for the battery packs too, problem solved!
    I don't see this issue so difficult. We are not making a spaceship, it's a damn car and I've just suggested to integrate some methods, previously used in other cars (or devices) separately.
    What about the dangers of the gasoline? It could launch a fire very more effectively. The lithium-ion batteries are being used on the roads in recent years in numerous hybrid cars or electric cars. There are good available experiences on using them in a new car.
    The solution is incredibly simple: Do not put them near together.
    Ha ha! Good point, the driver could deactivate such an announcement. It suffices only for the car's central computer to know about the change of weights and do the related calculations. Then it would show on the screen only for the driver that what is the remaining charge storage and such kind of info. Also, people can use this item for fun!
  19. MacGyver1968 Fixin' Shit that Ain't Broke Valued Senior Member

    Solar panels: Good idea...not really for charging while driving...but most people drive to work, park their cars for 8 hours during the daytime, then drive home. Assuming a sunny day, you could pick up 1-2kw/h of charge on your batteries for free while you're work.

    Bio-force Bad idea. The vast majority of cars on the road are only occupied by the driver. There's no way someone could drive and generate power safely. If you did have passengers, most people aren't going to want work a treadmill or a hand crank during their trip. Even if they were willing, trying to do so in a seated position would severely limit their performance. The amount of watt/hours that could be generated wouldn't be worth the additional weight of the your friends wouldn't like you very much.

    Charging by the solenoids electricity mechanism Possibly bad idea. Most people drive on paved roads, and most of the shock from bumps is absorbed by the suspension. The body of the car really doesn't experience much movement at all...if it would be a very uncomfortable ride. You might be able to attach some sort system to the suspension, where the movement is, but the more weight you add to the suspension, the less responsive it becomes, and ride and handling suffer.

    Charging by the piezoelectricity I'd like to hear a more detailed explanation from you about this one...particularly exactly where you plan to put the piezoelectric generators. Car chassis's are built to be rigid for better handling and safety. In normal driving, the chassis would experience very little deformation, if any at all. I'm not understanding how you could get any juice out of that without seriously compromising the strength and performance of the chassis. Please explain.

    Charging by the thermoacoustic Bad idea. Ambient sounds and sounds generated by the car simply don't have enough energy to extract any meaningful power from. Microphones produce microwatts of power. (See butterflies glued to the wings of airplanes

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    ) Completely pointless.

    Charging by the thermoelectric effects Bad idea as described/possible good idea. Thermoelectric generators require a significant difference in temperature between the hot side and the cold side to produce power. Let's look at this one: link It can produce 14 watts of power when the cold side is 30c and the hot side is 300c. While I know that Iran is hot in the summer...I don't think it ever gets that hot.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    If you look at the spec sheet...with the cold side at 25c and the hot side at produces next to no power at all. There simply isn't going to enough of difference in temperature of the cabin and the outside to produce power. However..this got me thinking...what is ~300c on a car? In a gas/electric hybrid...the exhaust system from the ICE is in that temperature range. That heat energy is completely wasted. Since these things only weigh 11 grams each, it might be possible to attach a bunch of them to a square shaped exhaust pipe and recover some of that unused heat energy without adding a whole lot of weight.

    As for regenerative braking and regenerative shock absorbers..both are good ideas, but are already in use or are being developed.
  20. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Yes, I saw that in your plan. But as I mentioned you reduce range when you replace some batteries with compressed air storage.

    Uh oh. You're falling into a common trap here. You're thinking "there must be some clever arrangement of energy transfers that will give me more range." That's not the case; every time you change a form of energy (say, from electricity to compressed air to traction power) you lose energy. If you have spare electric energy while you are driving you are much, much better off using that to drive the motors directly.

    Again, if you have the extra energy, send it to the motor or to the battery. Adding a step (charging a supercap then transferring it to the battery) just wastes power.

    Well, if you're not compressing the air so fast, then just send the power you would have used for the compressor straight to the batteries. More range, cheaper, simpler, more efficient.

    Thus adding cost, weight, inefficiency and size. A bad tradeoff I think.

    Exactly! You don't need seven different power systems with treadmills and windmills and compressors and refrigeration systems and linear motors and solenoid vibration recovery systems. Keep it simple.

    Agreed. Li-ion is pretty dangerous but we have some experience with them on the road. LiFePO4 is MUCH safer but you end up with less range due to their lower energy density.

    OK. I was going by your document, which stated that the air tanks would be placed around the batteries. Do you have an updated document that you are using now?

    True that!
  21. M. Mansouryar Registered Senior Member

    Apparently it does. Based on this report:
    Did you take seriously my humble request to see that forum? I persuaded that Australian person to stop objecting with the idea of using muscles in the car, started from here:
    If you like, we could repeat such remarks over here as well.
    So what? In any imaginable car you have big strains, tensions, pressures, etc among the body, floor, chassis, wheels & ground … never used before for generating electricity, no matter in smooth roads or rough roads.
    Please read the related words and references in my paper carefully.
    Not originally my idea. Ask those MIT students. Anyway, I certainly would use such shock absorbers instead of regular types.
    The compressed-air system is similar to ICE system, leading to feed a set of cylinders. It's not the only source of propulsion and we can idle it whenever needed.
    Better fuel economy[2][6] (up to 15% improvement) than conventional planetary geared automatic transmission …
  22. M. Mansouryar Registered Senior Member

    Glad you agreed with that. Although, I expect higher amounts of output than you mentioned.
    Three points that should be noted: 1) This item is useful in critical conditions, when the charge storage is over and the help is not supposed to come soon, the passengers should have a confidence feeling that they might cause the car to move several kilometers ahead. 2) If we assume using the car for inside city purposes, the additional 14 km in range is not a so little contribution. 3) Most important than all, we'd better look at this through a wider perspective, for example in an interval of a year. If this item would cause 400 km additional mileage for a car during a year, calculate the saved electricity from the fossil resources, then multiply it by the number of the cars applying bio-force and obtain a vision of the resulted impact on the environment (& health).
    Eventually, the future advancements in materials engineering might cause bigger contributions for the related devices in this item. I don't see unlikely if rotating a handle for some seconds, would cause you to watch a movie for tens of minutes …
    Bio-force should not be counted as a separate contribution. It's mixed with other methods of charging the car and only the car's computer could calculate the quantity of this service. Even if an EV would activate this option to add averagely one kilometer to its mileage every day and if we assume this car is being driven 200 days for a year, the owner has saved 200 km via this approach, a help to the environment and his health.
    Also, I should predict the emergency conditions before happening them as a driver and suggest my passengers to pedal or handle when the car is still running. I should do this regarding my destination and amount of electricity storage, otherwise I admit that would be a difficult and improper task for the passengers to do bio-force when the storage is quite over. That might work to propel a lost car in middle of nowhere for remarkable distances, if the passengers would use their muscles for more than two days. Absolute most of the people are unable to do that. They would need much food, rest and motivation to do that. I hope the solenoid electricity never would allow this awful scenario.
    I like this to be a part of my car package. If somebody dislikes this, he could ignore it. If somebody really dislikes this, he could refuse to order it at the first place, before buying his car. However, when he's stuck in a heavy traffic jam behind red lights, he might regret for lacking this possibility to be not passive in a limited space. This option as rotating handles or pedaling unconsciously might bring him peace in physically, mentally, financially, and environmentally aspects. Personally, sometimes inside the car, it gives me nervous pressure by thinking I'm in a closed space and I can't walk or jump freely. Also, in an excursion some people might want to try the most used muscles do not have to be necessarily the muscles for talking!
    I know marketing for a product that makes people passive is easier than marketing for a product that encourages them to be active. However, its sounds a good picture if some people might think this way sometimes:
    By rotating this handle for one time, I just served the earth and my body one time.
    By rotating this handle for two times, I just served the earth and my body two times.
    By rotating this handle for three times, I just served the earth and my body three times …
    There is no obligation to use this possibility, not for my friends not for others. The only problem is offsetting their additional weight, so those should be removable. Besides, only treadmill seems a bit heavy to me, other devices of this item in a 4-seater car must not become more than 10 kg.
    You have not got the point right. We make some artificial movements for the sliding magnets inside these solenoids. By means of springs, electromagnets, gels, …
    The aim is focusing exactly on that very little deformation.
    I just wanted to generalize and extrapolate the present applications of such an effect into an electric car. To clarify, look at this paragraph:
    High voltage and power sources …
    A similar idea is being researched by DARPA in the United States in a project called Energy Harvesting, which includes an attempt to power battlefield equipment by piezoelectric generators embedded in soldiers' boots. However, these energy harvesting sources by association have an impact on the body. DARPA's effort to harness 1-2 watts from continuous shoe impact while walking were abandoned due to the impracticality and the discomfort from the additional energy expended by a person wearing the shoes. Other energy harvesting ideas include harvesting the energy from human movements in train stations or other public places[17][18] and converting a dance floor to generate electricity.[19] Vibrations from industrial machinery can also be harvested by piezoelectric materials to charge batteries for backup supplies or to power low power microprocessors and wireless radios.[20]

    Or this one:
    Piezoelectric motors …
    Rectangular four-quadrant motors with high power density (2.5 watt/cm3) and speed ranging from 10 nm/s to 800 mm/s.

    Look at the involved numbers and dimensions of the devices in relation to this effect. Hence, to avoid wasting time on considering making power out of passengers' butts, that would be greater to focus on intense strains among the chassis and body in addition to wheels and the ground to use piezoelectric materials in such components to gain considerable amounts of electricity for ventilation, recreation and propulsion affairs. I'm telling as far as I know, there is a huge strain between the chassis and body of any imaginable car, so why don't we use such a possibility as an advantage?
    Add the tweels in this picture too.
    I accept this method is weak, but not as weak as you told. I want to use the available sounds relating to the car. For example the voice of a passenger's talking, sound of playing music, to blow the horn, the sound of braking, the
    exterior noise (in a traffic, etc), and especially the howl of the air flow, out of the car in high speeds. Notice to the last case. It is permanent and useless in the current cars. If the additional weight won't make much trouble, I intend to use this possibility. Related data:
    This is a virgin area and if we research on making it more efficient, that would be quite positive.
    Similar to the above case. Trying temperature differences above the 100 degrees is mostly wasting the time; that also is the case for below 10 watts output. Your example is good, but I prefer seeking such chances for my proposed car. Around the compressed-air tanks and tweels, one could find interesting temperature differences opportunities …
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2011
  23. MacGyver1968 Fixin' Shit that Ain't Broke Valued Senior Member

    We are in agreement here. Being able to capture energy from the sun, whether the car is moving or not is a good thing.
    Part of being a good engineer is understanding human nature...something that you seem to be lacking on. If a hybrid car runs out of juice in the middle of nowhere...the driver and passengers aren't going to whip out a treadmill and spend several hours of intense exercise trying to recharge the batteries just to make it a few miles down the road...they're going to walk down the road looking for a phone to call a tow truck. That is much more efficient that what you propose. You need to understand your users.
    This makes no sense to me. The body of a car does not move that much during regular driving. You can't get solenoids to move if the body of the car is not moving...which is the case in normal driving conditions.
    I asked you specifically to describe were the generators would be located, and you did not. I'm an electronic engineer, and am familiar with piezoelectric effect. Any deformation in the chassis of a car could be measured in millimeters at best. How can 2-3kw of energy be harvested from such minor movements?
    And you completely ignored the fact that sound waves produce very little energy that could be harnessed for re-capture. You're beginning to show your woo.
    So you will agree your idea of capturing energy from the difference in the cabin temperature and the outside temperature is not feasable? I am in agreement that this method could be used to capture energy for higher temperature systems on the car that would normally just be dissipated into the air.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page