Trump's campaign manager has been told he will be indicted. What's that about no evidence?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by joepistole, Sep 19, 2017.

  1. zgmc Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    759
    Of course he pled not guilty. Now they can sit down and make a deal. He is up against some serious charges...

    We don't know what kind of deal Papadopoulos made. He was probably facing multiple charges and pled to what he did in exchange for cooperation.
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    22,104
    I think what is very interesting about this is that Papadopoulos' arrest and the statement of offense that was released indicates that senior officials in the campaign were issuing him with instructions, encouragement and advice on how to proceed with his attempts to set up meetings with the Kremlin. Who were those officials? By all measures, the current AG was the one in charge of foreign policy, so the question now is was Sessions aware?

    One of the things that stands out from Papadopoulos is this footnote:

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    It shows the fact that the campaign was well aware of how this would look like, and the open acknowledgement that they try to use someone lower down the rank and file of the campaign to attend these meetings.

    What the indictments against Carter Page looks like will be interesting. Will it contain anything like in Papadopoulos statement of offense? Will it name the names that that statement failed to name, but did show that senior policy staff of the campaign were not only aware of what was going on, but were issuing instructions on how to proceed and how to ensure better visuals from those trips and meetings?

    Papadopoulos is a direct link to collusion cover up from the campaign and frankly, it can only get more interesting from here.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2017
    Quantum Quack likes this.
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,822
    Muller's got Trump so nervous now about indictments that all Trump can do is squawk about Hillary on Twitter. This is getting very interesting...

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    34,677
    Interestingly, the unnamed supervisor appears to be Sam Clovis.

    But they quote one unidentified campaign "supervisor" as emailing him in August 2016 that "I would encourage you" to make a trip to Moscow to arrange such a meeting. A Trump campaign source identified the supervisor as Sam Clovis, a conservative radio host who was co-chairman of the campaign. Another "high ranking" official—identified by the source as campaign chairman Paul Manafort—received an email from Papadopoulos saying that "Russia has been eager to meet Mr. Trump for quite some time and has been reaching out to me to discuss." Manafort forwarded that email to his associate Rick Gates and wrote: "Let's discuss. We need someone to communicate that DT is not doing these trips. It should be someone low level in the campaign so as not to send any signal." (Some of these emails were quoted in a Washington Post story this past August that first identified Clovis, Manafort and Gates as the campaign officials who sent and received them.)

    (Isikoff↱)

    That would be the same Sam Clovis who President Trump to lead the USDA research section↱.

    (Edit: Oh, right, I keep skipping the bit about Carter Page appearing on msnbc tonight, and telling Chris Hayes he had been in contact with Papadopolous, but it was nothing big. I don't know the detail, yet, as I haven't seen the segment. One of those days. And here I'm supposed to sit down and read a novel tonight, starting sometime a while ago. Oh, well, if I start too early ....)​
    ____________________

    Notes:

    Benen, Steve. "Spotlight focuses on prominent Trump nominee's anti-LGBT views". msnbc. 22 August 2017. msnbc.com. 30 October 2017. http://on.msnbc.com/2gP679c

    Isikoff, Michael. "Mueller discloses Trump campaign aide pleaded guilty to lying about Russian contacts". Yahoo! 30 October 2017. Yahoo.com. 30 October 2017. https://yhoo.it/2zkxGT8
     
  8. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    17,531
    Looking forward to the next big diversion generated by Trump. Should happen any time now... (if not already)
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2017
  9. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,511
    I'm waiting for the Broadway Musical

    Don't think I'd bother with a movie

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
    Quantum Quack likes this.
  10. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    24,295
    Lest we forget:
    http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/01/politics/paul-manafort-donald-trump-transition/index.html
    https://www.politico.com/blogs/dona...ndowski-and-manafort-enter-trump-tower-231738

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...fort_s_relationship_with_the_trump_world.html

    That's how things stood in December of 2016. Manafort, btw, was paying for that home in Trump Tower with wire transfers of laundered money from his Cyprus accounts, and apparently committing tax fraud in writing both it and a Florida home off as principal residences.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2017
  11. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,262
    After finally getting all the Webster related nonsense out of my head—remember when he burned down the freakin’ house?—I thought about this a bit. On the one hand, the ignorance of people and cyborgs (those glued to smartphones and related slave-made tech garbage) is pretty inexcusable, especially if they vote.

    On the other…

    So, for subverting democracy, an act which has and will continue to negatively impact the lives of hundreds of millions, in untold ways, probably for decades to come,

    Paul Manafort (for instance) might—might!—go to a minimum security facility for five years—but probably, if any, just a couple of years—where he won’t be getting raped and he won’t have to reassert his loyalty to Aryan Nation, just to survive. Then he’ll go back to being a multimillionaire.

    Trump? My guess is that nothing will come of any of this, he’ll be re-elected, then he’ll go back to being a billionaire, raping people, and whatever the fuck else he does.

    Should we fault people for not knowing or caring much about the goings on of rich white men? Sure, it affects them, but can they do anything about it? Voting kinda proved ineffectual this time.

    Honestly, when I read about how Manafort was afforded the luxury of presenting himself for arrest at his convenience--and house arrest, at that--I felt so removed from it all. Twice jailed, beaten, and (one time) denied essential medication for over 36 hours, for the crime of epilepsy, I simply couldn't relate. At all. And I know I'm not alone there: undoubtedly, millions of people were blown away by that one, and how markedly alien it was to their own experiences. And plenty more might have pondered such, had they not been shot dead first.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2017
  12. Kittamaru Now nearly 40 pounds lighter. Staff Member

    Messages:
    13,221
    See, the problem is, your crime was not having epilepsy - rather, your crime was not having gobs upon gobs of money.

    America - where you can, quite literally, purchase innocence.
     
  13. zgmc Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    759
    Well, we don't know what exactly Mueller has cooking. Letting Manafort off with house arrest at this point is more than likely a strategic move.
     
  14. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    24,295
    Recall the police treatment of VP Dick Cheney after he shot one of his lawyers in the face at close range, while hunting, in somewhat mysterious circumstances -

    and that evening hours later, when they came to the house where he was a guest to first take his statement (driving way out into the country on the taxpayer's dime), the owner of the house informed them that Cheney was tired and resting and indisposed - so they went away and came back in the morning.

    At the time, the victim was in the hospital near death - it could easily have become a negligent homicide case or worse.

    Ken Lay, of Enron fame, was at least cuffed after presenting himself at FBI headquarters for arrest following indictment. But he never spent an hour in jail afaik:
    Treating him without the same courtesy normally extended to men of his race and class might damage a trial. Mueller has to avoid that appearance.
     
  15. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    24,295
    btw: Indicting Manafort et al does not deprive Mueller of all leverage - one threat still hanging over all these guys is being charged Stateside, instead of Federally. State prisons are an entirely different kettle of consequences.
     
  16. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,262
    Well, it's more than that, though. We all know that were this an Obama or Hillary Clinton presidency, things would be playing out quite differently.

    Most everyone (I think) not born with a silver spoon has a revelatory moment in their lifetime. A while back, I was listening to an Al Franken interview (with Marc Maron) in which he recalled a time when his father wanted to send him to a private school for "smart kids" who get into the best universities. The student who gave Franken the tour was a--in Franken's terms--"mouth-breather," and most definitely not a "smart kid," and that's when he realized that the system was rigged.

    My own moment came about a few years later, but was very similar. I went to an elite private uni on a full ride scholarship, and naively assumed that a good many of my fellow students would be like me. However, most--an overwhelming majority--were rich (by pretty much anyone's standards, I should think) and a number were idiots--you know, Jared Kushner/W. types. Not a lot of idiots, but enough to pique my curiosity. Seriously, most students were without scholarship or loans--at a university for which total annual costs (tuition, fees, housing, etc.--in 2017) approach 100 grand. Just... how?! I can't even imagine how someone could swing that. That kind of thing sets you back.

    For most parties involved, excepting perhaps persons like Papadopolous who might have experienced real consequences (were it not for the plea deal), this might as well be Model U.N. They might not be able to hold a public office in the future--woooooh!

    Not that I'm a proponent of the "discipline and punish" approach, though for a lot of these guys the very idea of "rehabilitation" seems laughable. It's just that the damage has already been done, likely can't be "undone"--at least, not for decades, and as far the likelihood for a (realistic) best possible outcome--it ain't looking good. I mean, realistically, what is the best we can hope for? Mike Pence? Thats's quite possibly worse.

    I had thought about this, but is there actually much precedent for this, and are the penalties really all that different from what they could face at the federal level?
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2017
    zgmc likes this.
  17. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    24,295
    There's a very significant difference between minimal jail time in a minimum security Federal prison ("Club Fed") and the same time in a State penitentiary - for starters. Manafort (say) is looking at a legislated minimum five year sentence before parole at the State or Federal level either one - even if commuted, that's going to be a year or two. He does not want to serve that time in a State prison - seriously.

    Add to that the inability of his Washington pals to directly intervene in State sentencing and pardoning etc - they'd have to go through the Governor - and the prospect is a significant threat. By the evidence of this indictment Manafort (at least, and probably others including Trump himself) has defrauded several State-licensed banks and more than one State treasury - Mueller can turn over his evidence to his choice among State attorneys general whenever he wants to.

    These guys talk tough, but actual jail time in one of these prisons they are happy to build and run for black people and hicks (like actual military service) terrifies them.

    Not saying Mueller is going to thrown down here, as one would hope - this entire waltz may turn out to be another Scooter Libby fall and Cheney walk - but he can.
     
    zgmc likes this.
  18. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    24,295
    The pivot here is deterrence. Deterrence is a phony excuse for harsh sentencing in most crimes, because most crimes are committed by the very people least governed by foresight and self-control. But in the world of white collar crime, the perps are often calculating and "rational": deterrence works.

    As more than one well-informed Wall Street operator has said, in plain terms: throw just one big Goldmanfish into a small cell, just one, and that entire Wall Street/International Banking scene would come to an abrupt halt. The entire vulture-stuffing fly-blown carrion circus has pitched its tent on an assumption of a pre-issued Get Out Of Jail Free card.
     
    zgmc likes this.

Share This Page