Trump warns US citizens to exercise increased caution in New Zealand due to Covid-19

Discussion in 'Politics' started by paddoboy, Aug 8, 2020.

  1. Vociferous Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,761
    We're well past the need to "flatten the curve", so continued locked downs are now only delaying herd immunity.
     
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  3. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    26,402
    Putting that dream to sleep.......................
    https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases...th/herd-immunity-and-coronavirus/art-20486808
    extract:
    "However, there are some major problems with relying on community infection to create herd immunity to the virus that causes COVID-19. First, it isn't yet clear if infection with the COVID-19 virus makes a person immune to future infection.

    Research suggests that after infection with some coronaviruses, reinfection with the same virus — though usually mild and only happening in a fraction of people — is possible after a period of months or years. Further research is needed to determine the protective effect of antibodies to the virus in those who have been infected.

    Even if infection with the COVID-19 virus creates long-lasting immunity, a large number of people would have to become infected to reach the herd immunity threshold. Experts estimate that in the U.S., 70% of the population — more than 200 million people — would have to recover from COVID-19 to halt the epidemic. If many people become sick with COVID-19 at once, the health care system could quickly become overwhelmed. This amount of infection could also lead to serious complications and millions of deaths, especially among older people and those who have chronic conditions.

    How can you slow the transmission of COVID-19?

    Until a COVID-19 vaccine is developed, it's crucial to slow the spread of the COVID-19 virus and protect individuals at increased risk of severe illness, including older adults and people of any age with underlying health conditions.To reduce the risk of infection:


    • Avoid large events and mass gatherings.
    • Avoid close contact (within about 6 feet, or 2 meters) with anyone who is sick or has symptoms.
    • Stay home as much as possible and keep distance between yourself and others (within about 6 feet, or 2 meters) if COVID-19 is spreading in your community, especially if you have a higher risk of serious illness. Keep in mind some people may have the COVID-19 virus and spread it to others, even if they don't have symptoms or don't know they have COVID-19.
    • Wash your hands often with soap and water for at least 20 seconds, or use an alcohol-based hand sanitizer that contains at least 60% alcohol.
    • Wear a cloth face covering in public spaces, such as the grocery store, where it's difficult to avoid close contact with others, especially if you're in an area with ongoing community spread. Only use nonmedical cloth masks — surgical masks and N95 respirators should be reserved for health care providers.
    • Cover your mouth and nose with your elbow or a tissue when you cough or sneeze. Throw away the used tissue.
    • Avoid touching your eyes, nose and mouth.
    • Avoid sharing dishes, glasses, bedding and other household items if you're sick.
    • Clean and disinfect high-touch surfaces, such as doorknobs, light switches, electronics and counters, daily.
    • Stay home from work, school and public areas if you're sick, unless you're going to get medical care. Avoid public transportation, taxis and ride-sharing if you're sick."
     
    RainbowSingularity likes this.
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  5. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,666
    People who say that have no idea what herd immunity is.
     
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  7. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,232
    it is interesting to see how Covid_19 appears to be more infectious than the common Flu


    people whom believe they are generally following basic guidelines(but not strictly adhering to them) catch and transmit the Covid_19 virus

    a good example is Rest Homes/ Aged-Care Homes
    where Health care workers practice a higher level of basic hygiene than the average person, yet it has spread like wild fire in such places once introduced.

    it appears to be now becoming clearly illustrated with hard science that Covid_19 is more infectious than any other virus humans have encountered in recent history
     
  8. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,808
    Is the US healthcare system beyond the point of being able to manage? Has it really reached, in your view, the point where everyone may as well get infected and cross their fingers that they don't die?
     
  9. Vociferous Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,761
    B-cell immunity and even vaccines are likely temporary measures, at best. The studies that suggest herd immunity could be achieved with as little as 20% of the population rely on T-cell immunity, which has been shown to already exist in some, due to exposure to past coronaviruses.
     
  10. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    16,209
    you are way too confident in a hypothesis that relies on quite a few ifs and mights. the people who believe 20% are in the minority and some have said the studies that show that have methodology flaws. as for being exposed to other coronaviruses is probably not playing that big of role. a fairly large percentage of the population is exposed to them. the more virulent the virus the higher the percentage for herd immunity. i'd love for that low to be the number but its not likely.
     
  11. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    26,402
    Don't be such a silly billy!

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    from my previous link.....
    extract:
    "However, there are some major problems with relying on community infection to create herd immunity to the virus that causes COVID-19. First, it isn't yet clear if infection with the COVID-19 virus makes a person immune to future infection.

    Research suggests that after infection with some coronaviruses, reinfection with the same virus — though usually mild and only happening in a fraction of people — is possible after a period of months or years. Further research is needed to determine the protective effect of antibodies to the virus in those who have been infected.

    Even if infection with the COVID-19 virus creates long-lasting immunity, a large number of people would have to become infected to reach the herd immunity threshold. Experts estimate that in the U.S., 70% of the population — more than 200 million people — would have to recover from COVID-19 to halt the epidemic. If many people become sick with COVID-19 at once, the health care system could quickly become overwhelmed. This amount of infection could also lead to serious complications and millions of deaths, especially among older people and those who have chronic conditions.

    How can you slow the transmission of COVID-19?

    Until a COVID-19 vaccine is developed, it's crucial to slow the spread of the COVID-19 virus and protect individuals at increased risk of severe illness, including older adults and people of any age with underlying health conditions.To reduce the risk of infection:


    • Avoid large events and mass gatherings.
    • Avoid close contact (within about 6 feet, or 2 meters) with anyone who is sick or has symptoms.
    • Stay home as much as possible and keep distance between yourself and others (within about 6 feet, or 2 meters) if COVID-19 is spreading in your community, especially if you have a higher risk of serious illness. Keep in mind some people may have the COVID-19 virus and spread it to others, even if they don't have symptoms or don't know they have COVID-19.
    • Wash your hands often with soap and water for at least 20 seconds, or use an alcohol-based hand sanitizer that contains at least 60% alcohol.
    • Wear a cloth face covering in public spaces, such as the grocery store, where it's difficult to avoid close contact with others, especially if you're in an area with ongoing community spread. Only use nonmedical cloth masks — surgical masks and N95 respirators should be reserved for health care providers.
    • Cover your mouth and nose with your elbow or a tissue when you cough or sneeze. Throw away the used tissue.
    • Avoid touching your eyes, nose and mouth.
    • Avoid sharing dishes, glasses, bedding and other household items if you're sick.
    • Clean and disinfect high-touch surfaces, such as doorknobs, light switches, electronics and counters, daily.
    • Stay home from work, school and public areas if you're sick, unless you're going to get medical care. Avoid public transportation, taxis and ride-sharing if you're sick."
     
    Michael 345 likes this.
  12. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,232
    usa
    if you double a bad flu season year(170,000 dead), can you still get to a hospital ?
    yes if your rich or powerful
    no if your a schmuck health insurance policy owner paying for health care that you are being denied.

    next question

    "what if you simply swapped the common Flu for covid_19" ?

    it would infect 2 times more people than the common Flu

    current bad Flu season in the usa = 85,000 Dead

    SOo . . .
    if you magically made the common Flu go away
    and magically turned Covid_19 into the Common Flu
    how many dead per year in a bad season ?

    85k times 2

    170,000 dead per year not counting massive number of chronic injury's & hospitalizations

    next question

    "if i pay for health insurance in the usa can i get hospital treatment if i want it" ?
    absolutely no guarantee at all

    "if i am in Australia and i dont have health insurance can i get hospital treatment if i want/need it" ?
    yes

    my wang warning system
    long duck schlong alarm system
    measuring up celebrity headliners
    ...
    sexually misleading messages ?
    cock fights & dick pics ?
    has viagra suddenly become a cure for intellectual deficiency's ?

    what a sham


     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2020
  13. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,232
    70% of American working class citizens cant afford their own health system

    90% of that 70% are the ones funding that health system through their taxes and borrowing they cant afford to pay back

    you have no guarantee of hospital treatment in the usa even when you have bought and paid for health insurance

    that is a travel warning

    what countrys do you have a right to hospital treatment in ?
    (let me start the list you add to it)
    1 Australia
     
  14. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,232
    sexually misleading "packages"
    late to the party on that one

    "how big is your package" ?
    "excuse me madam im not sure we are properly introduced., please repeat the question"
     
  15. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,666
    You are saying that a population with 20% of its members immune to the disease will result in herd immunity to that disease?

    Again, people who say such things have no idea what herd immunity is.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2020
  16. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    26,402
    I rank our vociferous friend up there with river and Fat Freddy for silly unsupported beliefs.
     
  17. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,666
    He's a True Believer. If Trump says it, he defends it.
     
  18. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,712
    How bizarre!

    Travel to New Zealand:
    • Only New Zealand citizens or residents with valid travel conditions can travel to New Zealand at this time.
    • All New Zealand citizens and residents returning to New Zealand must complete at least 14 days of managed isolation or quarantine and test negative for COVID-19 before entering the community.
    • There are very limited exceptions to these rules. For more information, visit: https://covid19.govt.nz/travel-and-the-border/travel-to-new-zealand/plan-your-travel-to-nz/

    The stable genius is warning people to use caution when traveling to a nation that doesn't allow them to travel to.
    What an imbecile!
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2020
  19. Vociferous Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,761
    Not 20% "immune" (don't read words that aren't actually there), 20% infected.

    I'm saying that some studies have shown T-cell resistance to Covid from previous exposure to other coronaviruses. That's how T-cells and long-term immunity work.
    In discussions about immune responses to the coronavirus, much of the conversation has focused on antibodies — Y-shaped proteins that can latch onto the surfaces of pathogens and block them from infecting cells. But antibodies represent just one wing of a complex and coordinated squadron of immune soldiers, each with their own unique modes of attack. Viruses that have already invaded cells, for instance, are cloaked from antibodies, but are still vulnerable to killer T cells, which force infected cells to self-destruct. Another set of T cells, nicknamed “helpers,” can coax B cells to mature into antibody-making machines.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/16/health/coronavirus-immunity-antibodies.html


    One mind-blowing hypothesis — bolstered by a flurry of recent studies — is that a segment of the world’s population may have partial protection thanks to “memory” T cells, the part of our immune system trained to recognize specific invaders. This could originate from cross protection derived from standard childhood vaccinations. Or, as a paper published Tuesday in Science suggested, it could trace back to previous encounters with other coronaviruses, such as those that cause the common cold.

    “This might potentially explain why some people seem to fend off the virus and may be less susceptible to becoming severely ill,” National Institutes of Health Director Francis Collins remarked in a blog post this past week.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/08/08/asymptomatic-coronavirus-covid/


    T cells are part of the immune system and help protect the body from infection. T cell reactivity suggests that the immune system might have had some previous experience fighting a similar infection and may use that memory to help fight a new infection.

    So how could their immune system have reactive T cells if they never had Covid-19? They were "probably acquired in previous infections with endemic" coronaviruses, the researchers -- from various institutions in Germany and the United Kingdom -- wrote in the new study.
    https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/30/health/t-cells-coronavirus-study-wellness/index.html
    But I guess your paranoia would insist that the New York Times, Washington Post, and CNN are all now pushing disinformation. Or you're just completely ignorant of the basic science of immunology.
     
  20. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,232
    hunger games ?
    the rich elite do whatever they like and are above the law
    while the working class tax payers who pay for the rich elite do all the working and dying ?

    is that usa culture ?

    (travel bans & walls mean nothing if your rich?)
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    is that how most Americans think ?
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    [genuine question!]
     
  21. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    23,467
    The current outbreak in New Zealand came from a hotel quarantine by the looks of it.

    Only if you can't read...

    Because they locked down for several weeks and essentially stopped the spread.

    Right wing yahoo's in the US still think it's either a hoax, a Democrat ploy, fake news, 'just the flu', refuse to wear masks or isolate and so on and so forth..

    Can you spot the difference between how New Zealand approached it compared to the US?

    Which is astonishing, given there was no quarantine measures or any attempts to control it or restricting it's entrance in the US as it raged through Italy..

    Your issue is that you failed to even test adequately in the first few months, you have a President who did nothing but flub for months on end, your tests were a complete failure for several weeks, and did I mention you have a President who failed to understand or comprehend the issue at hand... Not to mention that same President took down the department that was designed to deal with pandemics to begin with because Obama created said panel/department to address pandemics and their threats to the US..

    Lack of contact tracing is just yet another issue with how your President and his administration handled it.. I won't even bother bringing up his bright light, bleach and disinfectant injection suggestion, not to mention his constant plugging of drugs and a doctor who thinks ovarian cysts is because women are having sex with demons in their sleep...

    New Zealand and every other country on this planet has a chance because everyone else was able to not only have contact tracing, but also implemented measures to stop or slow the spread..

    Again, do you notice what is vastly different between the US and every other country (except Sweden who have more deaths per capita for their own failures?)..?

    I mean shit dude, even 3rd world countries implemented better policies to deal with COVID19 compared to Trump..

    That does not make any sense at all.

    The US had community spread explode because your President is an incompetent twat who refused tests from the WHO and failed to provide adequate or even working tests for weeks and weeks.. and who not only stymied States gaining access to PPE's and other supplies, but went on national TV daily promoting quackery and at times calling it fake news..

    Your community spread could have started in March, the result would still have been the same.

    The US failed to prepare because as noted above, your President is an incompetent twat.

    Well aside from the NZ borders being closed and Americans have more cases than just about any other country.. Who do you think should receive the warning?

    Even India did better than the US, in a smaller country by land mass with a much MUCH bigger population than the US..
    What herd immunity?

    If you are pushing for herd immunity without a vaccine, you are condemning so many more people to die..

    What's an acceptable figure of deaths for you to achieve herd immunity that you don't think should be delayed with effective lock downs?

    Can you give me a figure?
     
    Quantum Quack likes this.
  22. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,232

    !
     
  23. Vociferous Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,761
    And? Do they have full contact tracing on it?

    Then you explain how travel to New Zealand is completely without risk for Americans. You know, so there's zero need of a travel warning.

    No, you're still buying a debunked Democrat lie that anyone ever said the virus was a hoax. And everyone took turns downplaying Covid, including Pelosi, de Blasio, and many in the left-leaning media. Get out of your short-memory bubble.
    And how does the different handling between the two countries mean Americans should take no precautions traveling to New Zealand? You know, hence the travel warning.

    The inability to get adequate tests, and choice of test, was not on Trump. So your bare assertions about Trump just miss the mark, at best. Trump didn't "take down the department that was designed to deal with pandemics". He consolidated three directorates in the NSC to reduce bloat and better coordinate the related expertise.
    VERDICT
    Partly false: The Trump administration disbanded the “pandemic response” team, but some of the team members were reassigned to roles that included pandemic response
    https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-...-pandemic-response-team-in-2018-idUSKBN21C32M
    And you don't understand Federalism, if you think that the federal government of the US has anywhere near the power the central government of New Zealand has. In the US, the federal government can often only act with the permission of the state. And the environment here is one where leftists are eager to scream that Trump is overreaching his authority.

    Injecting bleach is another leftist lie, and guilt by association is just a fallacy.

    No, even New Zealand didn't have full contact tracing, during their first round which included community spread. Much less "every other country on this planet". You do know that lack of ability to do contact tracing is the definition of community spread, right?

    Comparing the US to other countries is apples and oranges, because US states have autonomy comparable to countries.
    And Spain, the UK, and Italy all have more deaths per million than the US. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

    Not my problem if you don't know the difference between "avoid" and "stop".

    What's False
    The U.S. did not turn down an offer to use those tests (as no such offer was extended), nor was it unusual for the United States to design and produce its own diagnostic tests in lieu of those made elsewhere.
    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/us-coronavirus-test/

    Trump couldn't control the CDC incompetence, and Obama depleted the stocks of PPE. Get out of your deluded little bubble.
    Our rating: True
    We rate this claim TRUE because it is supported by our research. There is no indication that the Obama administration took significant steps to replenish the supply of N95 masks in the Strategic National Stockpile after it was depleted from repeated crises. Calls for action came from experts at the time concerned for the country’s ability to respond to future serious pandemics. Such recommendations were, for whatever reason, not heeded.
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ation-deplete-n-95-mask-stockpile/5114319002/

    Contamination at CDC lab delayed rollout of coronavirus tests
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/inve...7d3824-7139-11ea-aa80-c2470c6b2034_story.html

    It's not an either/or situation. But I see you didn't/couldn't answer my simple question.

    India’s coronavirus case trajectory worse than United States, Brazil
    Though India has performed better than the two nations on several parameters such as case fatality rate (CFR) and recoveries, its steady rate of increase of Covid-19 cases raises serious concerns about a potential surge.
    https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...n-us-brazil/story-W7uh2EGuA4nXKwBaKSgz5O.html

    Coronavirus: How many Covid-19 deaths is India missing?
    Many epidemiologists attribute this relatively low fatality rate to a young population - the elderly are typically more vulnerable. It is not clear whether other factors, such as immunity deriving from previous infections from other coronaviruses, are also responsible. Also, they point to a pattern of low mortality in South Asian countries that share a similar demographic of a younger population: reported Covid-19 deaths per million are 22 in Bangladesh and 28 in Pakistan.
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-53773070
    Vaccines are only temporary measures, while T cell immunity is long term. And high risk populations should, of course, take extra precautions until vaccines exist. But there's a balance to be struck.
    Mortality statistics show that many people have died from lockdown-related causes, not from Covid-19.
    https://www.city-journal.org/deadly-cost-of-lockdown-policies

    Coronavirus: For every three COVID-19 deaths, lockdown may have caused another two
    https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...ly-caused-16-000-excess-deaths-study-12044923
     

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