True Christian Dilemmas

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by PsychoticEpisode, Apr 6, 2006.

  1. Adstar Valued Senior Member

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    3,782

    Ahhh but He did come down to our level. In the form of the Messiah Jesus and He revealed everything we need to know. Its up to you to agree with or disagree with Him.

    Jesus told a parable once about a beggar called Lazarus. In this parable Lazarus died and was taken to a place of peace while the rich man who did not care for Lazarus died and went to a place of pain. He called out to God to allow him to return to earth to warn his brothers who where just as greedy and un-giving as he was, so that they would change their ways and care for others less fortunate than themselves. Well God said to Him that they (his brothers) have the word's of the Prophets to guide and warn them. But the rich man said, No No if they see a man returning from the dead then they will believe.

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    Jesus said if they will not believe the prophets then they will not believe even if a man was to return from the dead.

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    How prophetic was that, lol Jesus returned from the dead but they still will not believe Him.

    You also have His words and it is all you need to know. You don't need God to make a special trip just for your convenience He has Given His Word for you to accept or reject. It is the Word of God one needs to believe in. not signs and miraculous visitations. satan can pull of those kinds of things also. And in the end times satan will.


    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
     
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  3. Adstar Valued Senior Member

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    I have never blamed satan for suicide. People comit suicide. i believe that even suicides can be saved. The only unforgivable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. suicide is not that.



    No. One gets a "ticket" to eternity with God by ones faith in the salvation gained by the Messiah Jesus through his death and resurrection.

    The martyr does not "earn" eternity by having his head hacked of by members of a demonic religion. And if the person who said "f off" believed Jesus then He would have eternity with God also. Salvation is through faith in the Work of Jesus so that no man may boast that they earned it.



    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
     
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  5. geeser Atheism:is non-prophet making Valued Senior Member

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    there is no evidence for a jesus character, so to agree with a figment of the imagination is foolish is it not.
    ?
    no person, creature, thing, has returned from the dead.
    however a fictional person, creature, thing, can return as many times as you wish it to.
    whos words, we only have a fictional book, so with your logic, winnie the pooh could be the messiah, as his words are written too, " oh my " said pooh.
    it only takes one instance of a thing. to date there has'nt been anything, just a book written by man. infact the are 66 books 27 in the new testament. the rest in the old, all works of fiction, just like the grimm fairy tales and easops fables or a thousand and one nights.
    thats your religious opinion a muslim thinks different as does a jew a hindu etc etc etc
    in your opinion, what if theirs is the right religion.( now theres a dilemma)
    your just as atheist as me, to other religions, it's just I have no believe in your god too
    in your religious opinion
    what works he's a fictional character.
     
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  7. Archie Registered Senior Member

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    This thread is amazing in the erroneous thinking, misconceptions and falsehoods presented. The level of dreck presented is breathtaking. At a cursory run through, here's what I find.
    What's this about 'proving' ourselves? Who said that?
    Clockwood, what you say makes some sense. At least, it's defensible from a humanist standpoint. However, your next statement…
    … is much more curious.By what authority do you make such pronouncements regarding God or any other possible god? My knowledge of the God I serve comes from the Bible – which you may or may not accept. What I want to know is, from where comes your knowledge of god?
    He did. You still aren't listening.
    So, when God divested Himself of His Deity and power, came to Earth and died in the place of all sinners, you rejected Him. When He said, 'those who do not believe are condemned already', you rejected Him. The problem is, the only way you will accept God is if He abdicates and makes you God.Clocky, you're not qualified.
    So, Episode, if the choice was for you to die or your child to be raped and then killed, your 'survive first' dictum would require you to sacrifice your child?
    What you fail to understand is 'life' is more than the one 'everyone knows'. Are you not aware, do you not understand things more important than 'life' in the sense of saving your own skin? Do you not see 'honor' as being of greater import than 'life'?
    Episode, do you get strawmen on special? You fling them about so freely.
    Is that an 'out of context' statement, or do you really thing being a Christian is inherently dangerous?
    Why would Islamics kill him? For being a homosexual? Just remember this the next time you start some rant about Christians and homosexuals; like you do later on in this particular posting.
    You're kidding, right?'God's call…' So, Episode; the local military commanders who set the rescue are 'God'?'… risking everyone's life.' And of course, there was no risk beforehand? You yourself said the captives were in danger of being killed by the Muslims. Would you care to make up your mind? How many sides of this are you going to argue? You don't seem to be able to decide if the Islamics were a threat or the U. S. troops who did the rescue.By the way, being in danger is part and parcel of being in the service. Then again, it's part and parcel of driving on the freeways, too.
    Wrong again. You should try more than the 'Cliff Notes' version. In fact, the 'Cliff Notes' version is closer than what you're blathering.
    This is going to be real hard, Episode, but name me one person in the history of the universe, who died without God being involved. You can't. People die when God is ready for them to die; young, old, good, bad, rich and poor. No one dies unless it's their time, as directed by God.I realize you probably don't believe it, like it, or perhaps understand it, but that one little factoid answers a lot of your ranting.
    Who would that be? I certainly would worship Joseph Stalin or Mao Tse Tung. Who did you have in mind for one who thinks of me (and I presume all humans?) as shit on pasture?
    What is humorous about this, in an ironic manner, is Adstar is so clearly superior to 'godless' in every facet. Perhaps someday, 'godless' will graduate from grade school and learn to communicate. Until then, we can just sort of snicker at him.

    geeser All I want to know geeser is who really writes this stuff and pretends to be geeser? If I wrote garbage that inane, I'd use a fictitious name too.

    Dilemmas?

    My Christian brother Adstar and I disagree about pacifism. I am not a pacifist, and do not find pacifism taught as part of Christian Doctrine. That is not so much a difference of who is a 'truly good Christian' and who is not; it's more a matter of how we as individuals relate to God. However, I will not engage in 'let's you and him fight'.
    I can only tell you what I would do, and see as proper conduct as a Christian; I cannot dictate for others.

    Do something to stop it. Deadly force may or may not be required. Once the assault has been prevented or stopped, detain the man and call the police for medical support for the baby and pick up the suspect. Be prepared to testify in court. Minimum level of force as needed.
    Under what conditions? Am I captured or is this a threat to me in my home? Under any circumstances, I will not deny Jesus. If they try to kill me, they're going to need back up. I probably won't ever be a martyr, I'm just not cut out for it. If they kill me, you'll find me where their bodies are piled the highest and the brass on the deck is the deepest.
    That's a legal and church matter. I would present the originals to the local police or district attorney, and enough copies to the church congregation for church action. This man is going to jail, and he probably needs prayed for, too. I'm not going to organize a lynching, nor am I going to hide the problem.
    Again, what circumstances? A man walking down the street with an "I'm Jesus" sign? Someone demanding money for his 'ministry'? I'm not probably doing much of anything. When Jesus returns, everyone is going to know – even atheists. I live in the Los Angeles area, we have all kinds of screwballs. What's the problem here? I would also pray for the man. He needs help of some kind.
    Not my problem. I do what God would have me do. Second guessing the future is a sure way to go nuts early.
    Episode, to a Christian, honesty is honesty. It's only atheists believe stealing from someone unpopular or disliked is acceptable behavior.
    Oh!!! My boss is an atheist! Get the smelling salts! I'm going to have the vapors!!! Aaaarrrrrggggggghhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!

    Okay… this is a silly one.

    I'm going to continue to do the best job I can do. I won't hunt him down and back him into a corner, but if he wants to talk about God, I'll witness to him.
    How would I ever know? What would I care? God expects me to do the best I can for all people.
    And? To be truthful, this one bothers me somewhat. I would not want one of my children marrying outside our ethnicity. But it has to be their choice, doesn't it? It isn't me getting married, is it? (And I've not done so well in marriage anyway.) I'd pray a lot, smile sweetly and support their decision; even if I didn't like it.
    Well, I know this is going to be disappointing, but I'd welcome him/her. Something non-believers never seem to understand is the concept of separating the sin from the sinner. Believe it or not, most Christians think homosexuals should be in church. I'm not sure how comfortable the homosexual would be. In fact, people with 'sin' problems – that is – people who continue in activities they know to be sinful are usually not very comfortable in church. Not that people pick on them about it, but they are more aware of it.
     
  8. PsychoticEpisode It is very dry in here today Valued Senior Member

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    Archie, Archie, Archie.....oh what a twisted tapestry we weave when suffering from Bible rage. I just ask a simple question. Admittedly some of the situations are lame but it is interesting to note that both you and Adstar, self proclaimed true Christians differ in opinions on the same subject. At least Adstar, bless his heart, can supply us with Scripture that he thinks backs up his statements.

    Personally I don't care what you think of my rant, that's the beauty of the internet. I'm not trying to convert you. You unfortunately have a preconceived notion that atheists are incapable of experiencing the very same feelings a Christian would have because we don't believe in God. That is such an unintelligent prejudicial thought, but after analyzing your rebuttal I'm not surprised. Your opinion of atheists is laughable.

    As for the raped child. you've taken things completely out of context. Would I choose life over allowing my child to be raped? NO. I'll use some of your fellow true Christian Adstar's logic just to show you I can also think similarly. A child cannot defend themselves. In this case my actions would substitute for the child's survival instinct. I would not expect a reward in the afterlife, or an afterlife for that matter. Anyway the question I intimated was whether or not you would kill the rapist to save the child....if this opportunity arose then I would most certainly kill. Fear of an unproven, mystical belief would not prevent me from eliminating the SOB but I'd be preventing the perpetrator from ever repeating it. According to Adstar the baby raper can stilll get to heaven. All that talk of judgement means squat. I hope you enjoy eternity with a bunch of society's worse. It seems that both destinations. heaven or hell, are going to contain a mix of good and bad anyway. So why worry. Chill Archie, just testing your faith, that's all. Tell him Adstar.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2006
  9. Godless Objectivist Mind Registered Senior Member

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    4,197
    Hey dip shit, read what adstar said, it's "god" who thinks of you like shit on pasture, do you really think, that if a superior being existed who created the whole fucking universe is going to be concerned whether you lived or die, or just think of you as some meaningless peace of shit on pasture?.

    I beg to differ, the only idiot here so far, as shown by your lack of understanding is you asshole! :bugeye:

    Godless
     
  10. mustafhakofi I sa'id so Registered Senior Member

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    I'm surprised, they allowed you to have a gun, the bullet comes out of the hole at the other end, wow it's a wonder you have enough braincells to be able to stand up and walk.
    you an aledge lawman, should know that you present evidence, oh wait your not a lawyer, you would'nt understand that would you.
    it is foolish in the extreme, to condemn everybodies statements without producing some kind of reasoned arguement.
    but your a preacher too, why would you. you'd think your word's, would be enough, just like all the other poor religious saps.
    "cause you's got it from the bible, de only true source, about gawd." (yes,I'm being sarcastic)well duh! there ain't any other source anywhere in the universe.(that ain't evidence, nothing to substantiate it)
    WOW you are some dick.
     
  11. stretched a junkie's broken promise Valued Senior Member

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    Archie:
    “What is humorous about this, in an ironic manner, is Adstar is so clearly superior to 'godless' in every facet. “

    * Because he is a Christian right? Blissful arrogance. (yes, even within the context)

    A:
    “Perhaps someday, 'godless' will graduate from grade school and learn to communicate. Until then, we can just sort of snicker at him.”

    * Judgement. (just like in the Bible)

    A:
    “My Christian brother Adstar and I disagree about pacifism.”

    * Ah. Favouritism. (just like in the Bible)

    A:
    “Episode, to a Christian, honesty is honesty. It's only atheists believe stealing from someone unpopular or disliked is acceptable behavior.”

    * Judgement, on top of an outright false statement. (just like in the Bible)

    A:
    “In fact, people with 'sin' problems – that is – people who continue in activities they know to be sinful are usually not very comfortable in church. Not that people pick on them about it, but they are more aware of it.”

    * You know this absolutely for sure, right? Everyone believes (or should) in sin just like you do eh?

    * You said: “This thread is amazing in the erroneous thinking, misconceptions and falsehoods presented. The level of dreck presented is breathtaking.”

    * You are guilty of the same arrogance you are attempting to condemn here Archie. Now why am I not surprised, you judgmental, all knowing, near perfect Christian person you.
     
  12. PsychoticEpisode It is very dry in here today Valued Senior Member

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    New dilemma....Archie.

    Archie's wife who only believes in sex for procreation leaves for the weekend. Archie's married but beautiful next door neighbor comes over to borrow a cup of sugar dressed in a see thru negligee. Her husband is also gone for the weekend. Archie lets her in his house and once inside she reveals the truth ..... she has lusted for him since they became neighbors. She offers him her honor. Does Archie honor her offer? Will it be honor and offer all night in good true Christian fashion? What would a Good Christian do? Oh yeah, I forgot.....she tells him that if he doesn't have sex with her then she will tell his wife that they did, if he does have sex with her, she won't tell a soul.
     
  13. VossistArts 3MTA3 Registered Senior Member

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    The true christian would do whatever he or she felt like doing in all of those scenerios. The way the Bible is typically read, it provides justification for doing just about anything no matter how contrary it might seem to what might be called core Christian beliefs or practices. In all my life Ive only met a few (maybe) Christians, who lived by a strict form of practice. All the rest, are sin 6 days in a week if they want to, and then the once weekly to church purging, shake hands and agree Jesus is Lord and saviour, and off to heaven we go.shrugs
     
  14. PsychoticEpisode It is very dry in here today Valued Senior Member

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    Judging by the earlier responses and now yours, there is no clear definition of a true Christian. Sounds familiar. Its like having a thousand religions in the world that each think they're right.
     
  15. Archie Registered Senior Member

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    Is there a definition of an American citizen? We have liberals and conservatives, we have religious and non-religious, we have male and females and straight and gay and workers and slackers. So what makes an American citizen?

    By the way, Episode, that's a good name for you.

    Yes you would PE. Your life is the most precious thing in the world. You wouldn't allow anything to endanger it.
    If my opinion of atheists is laughable, it's only because atheists are laughable. Sure, PE, I just fell off the turnip truck and I've never seen, heard of, spoken to or dealt with an atheist before in my life.

    What was that you said? "... unintelligent prejudicial thought... " Yeah, PE, you've mastered that.
     
  16. Archie Registered Senior Member

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    I did read what Adstar said. You didn't. You missed a couple words and a very key concept in what Adstar said on the subject.

    God thinks enough of me to die in my place. God loves me enough to offer me a full pardon and eternal unlimited life. You haven't figured that out.

    Until you can read and discern what is written, there's no point in responding to you. You might learn some grammar and punctuation, too.
    So precious... Now, quit slobbering on your mommy's keyboard, she has enough to clean up already.
     
  17. Archie Registered Senior Member

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    Mustahafakofi, I just wanted you to know someone is using your computer to post silly rants with mispelled words and poor usage. Then they're signing your name.

    Stretched, I salute you on your ability to format and spell. Other than that, you're wrong about most everything, but at least you did it with some degree of grace. Most of what you posted is opinion, and as such, really can't be refuted or argued. We're all going to believe what we're going to believe, right? However, I think you missed a logical point. Look over the section
    and see if you can find the mistake. You'll probably have to go back to my post to find it.

    And, Stretch? The part about
    You already know the answer to that one. And you agree with me.
     
  18. PsychoticEpisode It is very dry in here today Valued Senior Member

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    Archie, I had you all wrong. You are the poster boy for true Christianity. Your zero tolerant, guilt by association attitude is very Christianlike. I'd almost bet you're one of the first prophets promised to appear before the blessed Messiah's return. I knew they'd send in the no nonsense guys just to straighten out those disciples of the devil atheists.

    Oh yeah, are you really like Archie Bunker or are you just trying to sound like him? Good job.
     
  19. answers Registered Senior Member

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    Jesus says He didn't come to bring peace but a sword. He didn't come to get everyone to tolerate everyone, but to fight a battle between good and bad.

    With that said let's look at the quesitons:

    What should truly good Christians do if.......

    1. they come upon a grown man raping an infant and there is a loaded gun within reach
    - Shoot the rapist as he has done something worthy of death.

    2. they are threatened by death to convert to another religion
    - My belief and my own personal inclination would be to gladly accept any torture or execution in order to Glorify GOd in my death, remeber 11 of the 12 Apostles died for what they told people they witnessed. It's worth dying for, trust me on that one.

    3. they are sent pictures of their top church official diddling the choir boys
    - Put the church officials in a bath of razor blades then boil them to death. (Gengis Khan documentary gave me the boiling idea, it's what they deserve). Jesus said 'it is better for a person to die and never have existed if you harm or stop the salvation of a little child'.

    4. they come upon a person who identifies himself as Jesus
    - We are told to Test angels by Scripture, Test the Holy Spirit Himself, and that Jesus will come back to earth in Glory in the clouds. So by these test I would find the truth, in the case you describe I would find a fraud not Jesus.

    5. they believe their prayers saved a person's life and that person goes on to later murder someone
    - That's an interesting one. Don't really see the implication though. It was the persons choice to murder, the Christian was only trying to save the persons life, it is the murdurers fault they murdered not the Christians, to imply otherwise is a bit much.
    6. they find a wallet full of money that belongs to a known satanist
    - Give it back to the Satanist in the hopes that the good deed would show the Satanist the value of obedieance to the true God.

    7. they discover their boss is an atheist
    -Pray that they will convert, and not go on to murder someone. Also look for oportunities to talk to them to change their mind, we care about people and don't want them to go to hell, just because their our boss doesn't change that

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    .

    8. they donate a body part that ends up in a Muslim or Jew
    - Hope that our generosity leads them to the true faith.

    9. their kids want to marry someone from a different race.
    - Bless them and pray that they'll have a happy marriage. A differen't religion would make me tell that person not to marry someone that is unequally yoked as the bible says, because when you've got someone so close to you telling you to believe something else, your faith 9 times out of 10 dies or doesn't mature.

    10. the homosexual who moves in next door wants to join their church
    - Tell him he is welcome and try to help him to stop his sexual immorality as homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. Salvation changes our worldly desires, and thus changes a homosexual to a hetrosexual, or else they aren't really saved at all.

    I know nothing I've said is tolerant and that's a sin in the worlds view. Humanists don't tolrate intolerance, which I think is funny. However truth doesn't tolerate lies, so Christianity will never be tolerant and all attempts to make it so, make it more a lie then a truth.

    Hope that helps a bit

    CyA
     
  20. VossistArts 3MTA3 Registered Senior Member

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    Answers,
    Just a quick question. Something thats been bugging me for some time. Dont Christians need to necessarily observe and obey those 10 commandments? How do people who claim to be Christians and doing right by God and Jesus justify killing other people?? Do you think the justifications will really fly when youre standing before God in judgement being asked to explain why you ignored one of the ten or twelve whatever, basic requirements for staying in favour with Him? Why you decided that you could judge your fellow human and punish him or her according to your ideas or desires? From what Ive learned, and I may be wrong, but, Ive had the impression that minding those commandments was fundamental and necessary for calling ones self a Christian and that everything written beyond that ( the NT and all the rest of the Gospels left out) had to be minded in the light of those commandments.. absolutly. Is this not so?
     
  21. answers Registered Senior Member

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    VossistArts excellent question. In the Book of Romans Paul deals with this question. There are actually more commands then just ten, there are like 500. From do not murder, to burn an ephod of unleavened bread on the 10th day of the month or something like that lol. But there's lots and lots. Paul writes that the Law is there to show us our wrongdoings. That is all it is there for. Have a read of how the Ten Commandments were given. The way they were given is amazing. Where they were given is surrounded by a flat plain, no where to hide from the law. The symbols of darkness and many others point to judgement in ancient Jewish times, it's really very interesting. So the Ten Commandments were given not to be lived in order to be saved, but to show us that we have broken them and need to be saved. There is obviously a distinction between do not murder, and the fact that the Jews had to fight enemies and kill, as all battles tend to result in. I haven't studied ancient Jewish religion so my Old Testament knowledge is pretty basic, so I can't explain this distinction to you. Hopefully someone else can. The Bible tells us not to judge, so I think this is where the modern day controversy comes into it. Because if we aren't to judge, how can you judge someone is worthy of death? Well the answer is that we simply apply the Bible to the situation. Jesus was preaching and children ran up to listen, the apostles told them to get away from Jesus and Jesus rebuked them saying, let them hear they are precious to me, anyone who harms them or leads them astray it is better for him to have a rock tied around his neck and thrown into a river, better for him to never have existed.' That's how much Jesus condems violence against children, because Jesus condems these people who harm children, we then apply that word to that situation, and we don't judge and condem, but we simply carry out Jesus's judgement and condemnation. Also to explain it a bit better with the whole Law and 10 commandments issue. Much of the law was abolished when Jesus came on the scene. You had whole books of law telling you about how to sacrifice, but Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice and there was no more needed. Hence why we have the old testament (or law) and the new testament (or law). Jesus changed a heck of a lot. He said when asked about what was the most important commandment 'It is to love God with all your heart and with all your soul, and to love one another as yourself. From this commandment comes all others.' Doesn't it make you feel all warm inside lol. We are told to love one another. However that doesn't mean justice shouldn't be exacted. Out of love for God we should respect and carry out His will, and when someone molests little children, or rapes or murders, God's will is that that person deserves death. However it's all blurred when things start to get applied, there's hardly ever a black and white, that's why we are also told to leave it up to God to judge becasue we aren't very good at it. But when there is a black and white case where the Bible specifically says what should happen, then you are simply carring out the word of God when you do it. You're an instrument of God, you aren't working against Him.

    At least that is the way I have interpreted it so far. I am still learning. I go to BIble college next semester so hopefully we'll cover it there, but I don't think I'll ever fully grasp God. He's pretty darn complicated. I suppose you wouldn't want a God that is simple though

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    Anyway hope that at least gets the ball rolling, it's something I want to learn more about as well.

    CyA
     
  22. answers Registered Senior Member

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    Oh and also another example of Old Testament Law no longer applying. The Sabbath is never commanded to be followed by Gentiles, it's for Jews only. Something I just learned this week.

    This guys teaching is really good and biblical have a look at the topics his spoken on they're free to download, you should be able to find some answers here http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?SpeakerOnly=true&currSection=sermonsspeaker&Keyword=Richard^Caldwell^Jr.
     
  23. Medicine*Woman Jesus: Mythstory--Not History! Valued Senior Member

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    *************
    M*W: Do you even know what a "Gentile" was?
     

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