Discussion in 'Politics' started by billvon, Aug 3, 2020.

  1. billvon Valued Senior Member


    Remember when you guys were making fun of the big COVID-19 conspiracy theory? It's all a big scare. A big Democratic hoax! It’s going to disappear; one day like a miracle it will disappear. It’s one person coming in from China. It's all a big media creation! Nothing to worry about. Don't be scared, little boy! It's a very little problem - five people - and they are all fine. There's going to be a very good ending! Not like the H1N1 disaster that was Obama's fault! This one will be nothing. Just a liberal conspiracy theory; a bunch of media hype.

    Ha ha.
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  3. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    Yep. That is a good one.

    There are plenty out there. Remember when the air traffic controllers went on (illegally) strike? They needed to make more money, they needed more controllers or it wasn't going to be safe to fly. We couldn't just replace them either because the training period was too long and difficult.

    Then Regan fired them all, never hired them back and guess what...flying was still safe and replacing them was no problem at all.

    Haha..I love a good joke. There are many in politics.
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  5. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

    You actually believe Trump is a reasonable person?

    "Delay the Election until people can properly, securely and safely vote???" he finished.

    Then he pinned the tweet so that it remained at the top of his account and wouldn't get lost in the fire hose stream of his other tweets, a clear sign he wants to get people worked up about it.

    Later in the day, during a briefing with reporters, he repeated his unsubstantiated claim that the vote in November "will be the most rigged election in history," and that mail-in voting is an invitation to fraud.

    "Everyone knows it. Smart people know it. Stupid people may not know it," he said.

    In truth, mail-in voting is available in many states, has been the standard way of voting in Oregon for more than 20 years, and all without the massive fraud Trump alleges.

    How is this a reasonable person?
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  7. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

    The FAA had initially claimed that staffing levels would be restored within two years; however, it took closer to ten years before the overall staffing levels returned to normal.
  8. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    So what? The skies were safe, it turns out no one was overworked and the illegal strikers got what they deserved.
  9. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

    how very right wing of you to view governmental employees as slaves. and your statements show you have zero clue of what went on to make sure it was safe to fly. as long as uppitty employees were punished all is well and good.
  10. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    You can apply to a label to any viewpoint that you don't share if you want to but it does nothing for your counter-argument.

    It's illegal for a traffic controller to strike. It's illegal for cops to do that. If a cop did that am I complained some would call me an extreme lefty.

    They weren't worried about making the skies safe to fly. They just wanted more money and staged an illegal strike to do so.
  11. Vociferous Valued Senior Member

    You still believe that lie?
    Trump's commentary on the new coronavirus came before the virus began killing patients in the U.S.

    What's True
    During a Feb. 28, 2020, campaign rally in South Carolina, President Donald Trump likened the Democrats' criticism of his administration's response to the new coronavirus outbreak to their efforts to impeach him, saying "this is their new hoax." During the speech he also seemed to downplay the severity of the outbreak, comparing it to the common flu.

    What's False
    Despite creating some confusion with his remarks, Trump did not call the coronavirus itself a hoax.

    Just like the impeachment really happened but the excuse for doing it was a Democrat lie. Trump never said coronavirus was a hoax, only the Democrat lies about his response.
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2020
  12. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

    did you know nasa did a study that showed 20% of air traffic controllers make serious mistakes due to fatigue? also no it wasn't the money. they were actually offered more money. their main thing was a reduced work week.

    whats there to counter you are are grossly misrepresenting why the went on strike.
  13. Seattle Valued Senior Member

  14. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Flying was still unsafe, and replacing them was a serious problem.
    Only some wingnut idiot would call anyone a lefty for complaining about a strike by a union of public employees.
    The skies were not safe, lots of people were overworked, and Reagan enjoyed the fruits of having broken a major union - including a wave of illegal immigrants moving in on what had been union-protected jobs in the US, the stagnation of wages and reduction of benefits for a wide variety of formerly solid jobs, and a sharp inflection downward in almost every measure of citizens's wellbeing that continued for decades after he left office (one step ahead of the law - like most Republican Presidents since WWII he had violated his oath of office, broken the law, betrayed his country, and rendered himself vulnerable to indictment and prosecution by honest Federal and State legal teams.).
    So the story was told, by the same media operatives who sold the intellectually vulnerable on supply side economics and deregulation of the banks.
    Oh, and Reagan cut taxes on poor people.
    Lots of such stories, all of them debunked by the knowledgable and fouled by historical event - but the intellectually vulnerable believe them to this day.
    - - - -
    Which proves he had timely warning and adequate information before it got loose in the US.

    His initial "commentary" came after he had been warned of the risk posed by the virus, the fact that it seemed to have escaped Chinese control, and the lack of US readiness or preparation - warnings sent by people who fully expected the President to take action immediately to protect the US citizenry from an obvious and serious danger.

    He declared those risks and those warnings to be a Democratic Party hoax, and obstructed efforts to protect the US citizenry from the depredations of the virus. He claimed nobody knew what caused the disease. He said it would go away by itself. He promoted bogus treatments and ineffective countermeasures. He tried to palm off responsibility on the States. He even interfered with efforts to restore some of the response capability he had destroyed earlier. Then, after it got loose in the US, he obstructed efforts to study and track the virus, count and measure anything about it, or even diagnose the sick and contagious quickly enough to support containment measures.

    At least one hundred thousand Americans have been killed by this virus who would not have been sickened by it had Trump taken the recommended measures he labeled a Democratic Party hoax. At least that many more have been seriously injured by it, some crippled for life. The excess deaths correlated with the virus number over 200,000, due to the effects of its preventable spread in the US. And unlike in other countries with First World standard public health care infrastructure, there is still no visible end to America's epidemic of infection by this virus - if our current trends continue the country will still be battling waves of this plague years from now, rather than being restored to more normal circumstances like other countries. Unless we get very lucky with both a vaccine and the response to the incoming economic crash, the Republican-trashed US will not recover in our lifetimes.
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2020
  15. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    "Wingnut", "intellectually vulnerable", "flying was unsafe", just calling names and insisting that you're right doesn't make it so. You have your religion clearly.

    You are against deregulation because that's just part of your religion. If jobs are inefficient, that's just because they are "good solid American jobs".

    There used to be basically one phone company and the rates weren't open to competition. Flying was very expensive. Banking was ridiculous. Your bank was the only institution that could offer you a checking account. Now your investment account can also offer you a checking account.

    Sure, you are going to whine that everyone is broke, no one can have an investment account, poor people still can't fly, phones worked much better in the old days. The woman of the house didn't have to leave the house and everyone knew who the man of the house was.

    Only the emotionally fragile would want to go back to the 50's. A real progressive...is progressive, can accept and adapt to change. A reactionary can't. Are you a reactionary? A Luddite?
  16. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

    From your own link:
    So he didn't actually say that the coronavirus itself was a "hoax." Wow. Now that we've established that, what exactly was your point?

    Also, the adjectival form of Democrat is Democratic. Your "traditional grammar" which is not to be found in a single published text, being as they all rely upon style guides, isn't serving you well.
  17. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

    For that matter, does this idiot (Vociferous) ever have a point? So Trump didn't actually say that the coronavirus itself was a hoax. Big fucking deal. Doesn't change the fact that Trump is a mass murderer, a misogynistic racist and a consummate imbecile who has robbed tens of millions of people of their livelihoods--and he's a fucking serial rapist, to boot. He (again, Vociferous) is not even a good grammar nazi, as has been shown time and again. Vociferous has not--and can not--present a single piece of evidence to counter any of those claims facts.

    So why does he even bother? Why do any of them even bother?
  18. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member


    David Cross said (starting at 1:40):

    But anyway, so there’s this Twitter thing, uh, Twitter feed, that I’m on that’s called Trump Regrets or Trump Voter Regrets or something like that. And it’s a compendium of whenever somebody writes that in their tweet, it sends it to this thing. And, you know, it’s been going on, they’ve compiled thousands and thousands of them. You know, there’s– somebody posted a couple days ago:

    “Dear President Trump, I’m starting to regret my vote.”

    What– Now? Now you’re… starting to regret.

    “Yeah, that’s right! I mean, I was fine in the beginning. I– I can overlook and I’m okay with the blatant racism and the crass sexism and the deranged narcissism and pandering to Nazis and supporting pedophiles and proudly bragging about being a sexual predator and paying your mistress to have an abortion and openly cheating your employees and mocking the disabled and praising murderous dictators and the constant pathological lying, the petty, vindictive cruelty, the staggering ineptitude, the unapologetic corruption, the nepotism, the Mob ties, the calculated mendacity, ignorance as to how American government works, encouraging violence against those that question your authority, the theft of our tax dollars to pay off your mountain of debt and/or go golfing.

    "Did I mention the relentless lying? You’re a liar. Being a white nationalist, demonizing immigrants, the obvious disregard of the Bill of Rights, lying about whether Russia had hacked our election when you knew all along it had, then lying about lying about it, the collusion with our sworn enemy and the sworn enemy of democracy, your dereliction of duty, your treasonous activities, and I…


    "I was with you when you cheated… I was with you when you cheated on your wife with that porn star, the one you compared favorably to your daughter, you cheated on your wife, not the wife you raped, but the current wife who had just given birth to your son, and of course I was with you when we found out you cheated with the Playboy Playmate, the one you compared favorably to your daughter, not– not with the wife you have now, but the second wife whose kid you ignore, and of course I was with you, President Trump, when you– when you took the babies away, you took infants breastfeeding, literally breastfeeding, from their mothers and fathers, families who had made this arduous trek to come here and seek asylum. They just wanted to seek asylum. And you took them and you sent– deported the parents and you took them and separated them, sent the kids hundreds of miles away in a disused Walmart inside of a cage with armed guards pointing guns at them.

    "And then of course, uh, and then, uh, thus ensuring the private prison contractors, CoreCivic and GEO Group, who donated heavily to you can get paid their collective four billion in profit as those toddlers sob and whimper in absolute terror traumatized for life, of course I was with you with that.

    "But this last omnibus spending bill is where I draw the line! -Mm! Mm, mm, mm! -[cheering] I’m sorry, President Trump. But I’m a good Christian. I’m a good Christian and I can’t tolerate that last spending bill.”
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2020
  19. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Sure. Trump is great, he himself is a genius - and we are all idiots suffering from some sort of mental disorder that leaves us incapable of seeing his very large and good-working brain.
  20. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    And it doesn't make it false.
    You made unsupported and unreasoned false claims, I made true ones. Why not check your unwarranted and never supported assumptions against the physical record - see who got it right - if you are bothered?
    And life was much cheaper for the working poor. The cost of living, measured in median takehome wage hours, was substantially lower. So?
    I never have posted, and never will post, any such nonsense. (Your insistence on misreading and invention when dealing with my posts, which are right here in front of you, of course increases your burden of proof regarding claims that are harder to check. In an argument or discussion that would be a mistaken tactic. Here it's just a routine Tribal practice. But it does raise an interesting question: Why exactly do you guys refuse to paraphrase accurately?).

    Look: you made some assertions you can't back up, I've seen them before and know where they come from, I know you have seen the evidence and arguments against them, and so I know this hasn't been an argument for some time - decades. It's a propaganda campaign. So the most repetition with the least effort is a reasonable gambit.

    ( If you are willing: The lessening of safety was documented by various measuring and rating agencies and methods at the time. Start there. Note that we already know the PR disaster did not happen: by dint of unusual effort and undeniable expertise on the part of the frankly a bit frightened airline industry, and some good luck, and some coverup, the risk of disaster did not become the reality of disaster - that does not mean the risk was not there, and anything you repeat along those lines will be evidence of your having once again abandoned an issue in pursuit of yet another parroting opportunity).

    (another: The intellectual vulnerability is also documented reality - including the documentation on this forum, thousands of examples of gaps in education, in intellectual training, in standard rhetorical and reasoning skills normally obtained by practice and supervised effort over time. Like defensive boxing skill or lack thereof, it's not something one can fake. How many times have we seen this particular American political faction post bewildered irrelevancies when confronted with the theoretical basis of a free market capitalist economic system and its consequent dependence on continual governmental oversight and intrusive regulation, for example? Or insist that fascism is a leftwing ideology, offering as evidence that it is authoritarian? Or try to claim Reagan did not center his political career and national campaigns on an appeal to white racism and promise of Federal support for white supremacy? Or try to argue that Supply Side economic theory as invoked by Reagan made sense at that time and place, and in practice worked? Or make an argument of the form that Some A Is Not C and Some B Is C contradicts the claim that A Is C much more often than B Is C? These are not subtleties. It's not just that these people have no training or experience in thinking, it's also that they have no facts of the common reality to think with. They have no contact with a reality beyond their personal experience. And since they can't distinguish ignorance from stupidity, they defend and deny their ignorance at all costs - nobody wants
    to appear clay-pot dumb in their own eyes. Hence their vulnerability - all the guys behind Trump, W, H, or Reagan had to do was stroke them and pocket them).
  21. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    If the Republican Party can make it all about Trump, they win - Biden's been a fellow rightwing authoritarian and "bipartisan" agenda pusher his entire life, they have no real problem with him.
  22. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    Back in your hay day there were still "working poor" as you mention. Why was that? That would indicate that there are always the poor. Why focus all attention on the poor?

    There will always be the poor. There will always be homeless. As long as the opportunities are there it's useless to focus so much on "the poor".

    Focus on how to improve oneself rather than to continue to moan about how impossible it is to improve oneself. Bringing every issue down to the lowest common denominator isn't helpful.

    You want a hand out and when you get it your response (effectively) is "that's not enough".

    Regarding paraphrasing, it's not literal, that's why it's paraphrasing. Don't get caught up on the literal. That's your ruse.

    Things are better today for those who try to make their life better. For those who want everyone else to expend all of their energy and money to try to make someone else's life great, that's not the way it has ever worked.

    Detroit is a wreck today, not because the auto industry left. The auto industry and most people, left because Detroit became a wreck. That's where your anachronic way of thinking leads.
  23. Vociferous Valued Senior Member

    That's the whole point. Billvon still believes the lie that anyone ever claimed the virus itself was a hoax:
    No accounting for gullible people being duped by their own tiny, curated bubble. Good on you, if you actually know better.

    Funny you should mention that. I was just telling someone how I patently refuse to refer to Democrats as "Democratic". That's a conscious choice, albeit admittedly and grammatically incorrect. Since "democratic" shares its definition with the form of government, I consider its use to refer to Democrats as an equivocation, at best. One that I won't perpetuate.

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