Translation & Muslims

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by flameofanor5, Dec 13, 2007.

  1. Kadark Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,724
    I’m afraid not.

    [2:62] Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who (1) believes in GOD, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

    The verse above clearly shows the pure acceptance of Judaism in the Islamic religion, and how their beliefs are respected and accepted on Judgement Day. Thus, they are People of the Book.

    Let us take a glance at the referral to the Jews in Surah 5, keeping in mind the necessary contextual basis when quoting specific verses.

    [5:18] (both) the Jews and the Christians say: we are sons of Allah, and his beloved. Say: why then doth he punish you for your sins? nay, ye are but men, of the men he created: he forgiveth whom he pleaseth, and he punisheth whom he pleaseth,: and to god belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between: and unto him is the final goal (of all).

    The first reference to Jews in Surah 5 is above. This verse is quite clear, and shows no signs of aggression/dislike/hostility for the Jewish religion. The verse simply reiterates that, we are not “sons” of Allah, and we are all vulnerable to punishment if we sin. Allah will punish those (of any religion, or lack thereof) for their sins, but will also forgive if they truly seek forgiveness. This is not exclusive to Jews, although they are specified (along with Christians) because there is a common belief that they are naturally chosen to ascend to heaven, without having to earn anything.

    [5:41] O Messenger! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into Unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no Faith; or it be among the Jews- men who will listen to any lie- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, "If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!" If any one's trial is intended by Allah, thou hast no authority in the least for him against Allah. For such- it is not Allah's will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment.

    Considering the revelation of this Surah, it is safe to say that taking great precaution in foreign alliances would be an understatement. Revealed after the treaty of Hudaibiyah, this verse deals with the Jewish deceit and support (at times) for the Quraish (refer to Battle of the Trench).

    If we look at other verses (as we would if we actually read the entire Qur’an), it would be blatantly obvious that not all Jews are deceitful and untrustworthy.

    [3:113-115] Not all of them are alike; a party of the people of the Scripture stand for the right, they recite the Verses of God during the hours of the night, prostrating themselves in prayer. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin Al-Ma'rûf and forbid Al-Munkar ; and they hasten in (all) good works; and they are among the righteous. And whatever good they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for God knows well those who are Al-Muttaqûn.

    As we can see, not every Jew is categorized as one predictable being. They are diverse, and the ones who follow their scriptures and place faith in Allah are well guided, just as the Muslims.

    [3:199] Surely, some followers of the previous scriptures do believe in GOD, and in what was revealed to you, and in what was revealed to them. They reverence GOD, and they never trade away GOD's revelations for a cheap price. These will receive their recompense from their Lord. GOD is the most efficient in reckoning.

    Never trade away God’s revelations for a cheap price” can mean a lot of things. In addition to supporting those who follow previous scriptures, this verse tells us that the Jews who have not beguiled Islam and sought for its weakening/destruction through either: a) direct confrontation, or b) support for its enemies, will be rewarded.

    [5:44] It was we who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my Signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.

    Merely stating that the Jews were the ones who were revealed God’s words, and were entrusted to its protection and glory. There is a warning, saying they should not “sell out”, or backstab other monotheists (Muslims and Christians) who share many of their values, morals, and ideologies because of the fear of other men, as only Allah should be feared. Again, no signs of discrimination or condemnation of Jews; not even close.

    [5:51] O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends: They are but friends to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

    Here is a commonly quoted verse trying to establish an atmosphere of disarray between Muslims and Christians/Jews. The word “friend” here is erroneously translated; the word is more along the lines of “guardian”, “protector”, or someone who you are very intimately dependant on.

    Therefore, the new (and correct) translation should be read as follows.

    [5:51] O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your protectors: They are but protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

    This verse merely encourages independance on behalf of Muslims, and says that we should support each other, because ultimately, blood is thicker than water.

    (Note: Thanks to Sam for clearing me up on this verse a while back via PM).

    [5:82] Strongest among men in enmity to the Believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the Believers wilt thou find those who say, we are Christians: because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.

    Again, a clear reference to the personal ties between the Jews and Pagans (Quraysh) against the growing Islamic religion during the 600s. Keeping in mind the date and environment of the revelation, it is only natural that a certain degree of enmity would follow (Jewish conspiring against Islamic followers).

    In all, it is important to remember in this Surah, as mentioned before:

    [5:69] Those who believe (in the Quran), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians, any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the work righteousness, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

    Regardless of any Jewish wrongdoings, be it private or public, individual or in the form of a group, all firm believers of a single God and the hereafter can be forgiven, and those who lead a good life will having nothing to fear in the hereafter.

    It is simple to take a few lines (likely mistranslated) about Jews and say, “look! Islam is harsh to the Jews,” but that does not get to the root of the problem. Many other factors must vitally be considered: revelation date, revelation setting, preceding and succeeding verses, and the general topic of the given Surah.

    I hope this helped you a bit in understanding the Islamic perspective of the Jewish religion. If you want any sources, I’d be glad to refer you to some.
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    Why - What do you get out of reading it?
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    What does this tell you about polytheistic people like some ancient Hindu or modern day Shinto or what about Scientology or other monotheists like Mormons or even Baha'i?

    What does the Sura9 say about them Kadark? I'm curious.


    Also your summary is kind of sad in my mind:
    This verse merely encourages independence on behalf of Muslims, and says that we should support each other, because ultimately, blood is thicker than water.

    Blood is thicker than water?!?! You think BLOOD is ticker than water is something good to preach??? REALLY??!?!?

    How about this: We are all humans and supporting one another is thicker than blood. You remember: The Universality thingy??? Human dignity over that of petty tribal bullshit.
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    And I knew this would be your reply. It's really a why bother really?

    We've had these same debates here over and over and they go nowhere. Remember I used to ask you the question of what does the Qur'an offer thats novel and enlightening. This is why. It's easy to say: Yeah, I knew that would be your conclusion, even about the entire Qur'an leaving us with the notion there was some deep meaning we somehow missed that SAM perceived or better, it's not a pie in the sky metaphysics book but a real life-manual.


    Frankly it doesn't matter. We all agree that world philosophers do not flock to the Qur'an for deep insight. It's a fact. It isn't taught in Japan or China or Brazil or Russia or Germany or Africa or etc... yet Plato is and Socrates is. That seems to suggest the writings or Plato and Socrates are somehow better suited to the human condition than The Perfect Book. WEIRD HUH????

    We all agree that there are no examples in history of the life-manual bearing fruit. We can take the last 1000 years and nothing all that great. We know that Japan nor China nor Brazil nor Russia nor Germany nor Africa nor etc... are modeling their societies to mirror that of past or present Islamic ones. It's not happening because it didn't work. If it had - they would, it doens't and they don't. Hell, most Islamic countries consider it a failure and are moving on to something else. This would seem to suggest the writings in Qur'an as a life-manual simply don't work.


    It's just comes down to the same circle. If you can convince yourself that no human art form = good then I'm sure you can convince yourself that Sura9 somehow is a wonderfully tolerant outlook an humanity. How Kadark could have come away from 3 Perfect Suras and hundreds of Perfect words with: Blood is thicker than water?
    :bugeye:

    Only God herself knows.


    Like I said, it seems pretty simple and straight forward to us,
    Michael
     
  8. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,825
    Did you miss the part where it was revealed after the treaty of Hudaibiya? Were there Shinto or Bahai at the treaty? Why do you read verses in isolation rather than as part of the whole?

    When the verses address the messenger, O Messenger, they obviously refer to an advice given not a general creed.

    Do you people read all scriptures like this?

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    A verse here, a verse there?
     
  9. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    The point is if there were a real God and if it really did give two craps then the Qur'an would be a Perfect Book of Humanity and be addressed to all peoples of the world. As it is there is no God and the book was a copy of very common stories and religions from in and around the Arab region.



    Tell me this SAM, when you read the Sura9 what does that tell you about non-peoples of book? Like polytheistic Shinto or polytheistic Hindu or polytheistic Arabs? Is their beleif to be respected or not? Well?
     
  10. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,825
    Sura 9 is about the conditions of the Prophet and his companions during the breaking of the Hudaibiyah treaty. As such (as when reading about say, the incidence of Abraham in the desert) it tells me nothing about Shinto or Japanese people, unless they were secretly ensconsed in the Arab tribes
     
  11. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    11,529
    If there really is a God, why should He serve us? People may argue that Judaism cannot be real because it is too cruel; perhaps God is cruel? After all, do we not worship Him, and we serve Him (if he indeed is real), rather than he serve us?


    Secondly, is it? Maybe it isn't to be respected. You know as well as I, however, that neither are they to be respected in Christianity, if you are trying to say otherwise.
     
  12. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,087
    Sura 9: 29. Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the religion of truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

    30. And the Jews say:. Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!

    31. They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no god save Him. Be He glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!


    Sura 4: 89. They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,

    "So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection." - Buhkari
     
  13. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    11,529
    Geoff, firstly, if people followed their Abrahamic religion by-the-book, the world would be pure chaos.

    And secondly, there is more chaos in the book of Genesis than the entire Koran.
     
  14. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,825
    If anyone wants to know the Islamic attitude to unbelievers, there is a whole sura called, believe it or not, The Unbelievers Sura 109. Look it up.
     
  15. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    So, you are saying that when words and pharses such as: "idol worshipers" "disbelievers" "wicked people" "disbelieving people" "evil people" etc...appear in the Qur'an that these in NO way have any relevance at all to modern day people?

    NONE.

    Islamic scholars all agree that there is no "moral to the story" so to speak - It's all simply a long winded triaid about something that was happening back 1500 years ago and no need for you to concern yourself.

    So when a modern Japanese or ancient Indian were reading about how the One God considered polytheistic people "evil people" he/she should think this has nothing at all to do with his/her family who happen to be Shinto or Hindu. No No No - those polytheism are perfectly fine and dandy to the One God. Is that true SAM? The only polytheisms the One God gave two craps about were the ones in and around Arabia.

    Seems like a colossal waste of time to include it in the "Perfect Book" - The Book that will guide all of Humanity to a wondrous bright future. But hey, if you say so.



    Michael
     
  16. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,825
    Like it says in the Quran, the signs are all there for those who care to see.

    But its interesting that people refer to verse such and such and ignore the rest that precede or follow it. e.g. Kadark gave several verses that showed that not all the people who are Jews or Christians are disbelievers, and to beware of those who have empty words on their lips and no faith in their hearts, which clearly separates religion from righteousness.
     
  17. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    And Mormons wear magic underwear... riiiiight
     
  18. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    11,529
    Again, is that the job of the book? After all, a strict, by-the-book Christian society isn't a bright future; it's hell. Just look at Plymouth.
     
  19. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,825
    I would not know that but I see that you are one of those who only practise to deceive.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  20. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,825
    He's not really interested in learning. Notice how he ignored the reference to an entire sura on kuffar. There are some here who pretend an interest, but clearly are only interested in confirming their own beliefs. :shrug:
     
  21. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    I HAVE IT NOW!

    Haaa!

    This is brilliant.
    I am going to run an experiment.

    I happen to know a Japanese girl that didn't know who Mohammad was. She has no clue and really really couldn't care less. YOU pick out a Japanese translation and I will print it and I will give it to her to read and then I'm asking her to write down what she think it means to her. What she gets out of it.

    Hows that? I think it's fair enough experiment,

    So give me the website of a reputable Japanese translation of sura 9 and we'll see what the everyday person thinks. Someone who probably doesn't even know what the word "Jew" means.

    Michael
     
  22. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    Hey you're preaching to the choir here mate. Screw a Xian society!!!
     
  23. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,825
    Sure, if she wants to follow Mohammed, all she has to do is get an Islamic teacher (as I did) to teach her the religion.
     

Share This Page