Translation & Muslims

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by flameofanor5, Dec 13, 2007.

  1. flameofanor5 Not a cosmic killjoy Registered Senior Member

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    Not that I hate Muslims or anything but, you say you are peaceful people. Chapter 298 in the book of surra(if that's how you spell it). "Allah is an enemy to all unbelievers" "oh believers take not jews and christians for your friend, for they are one in the same" And "Fight unbelievers that are near to you, murder those who are of unbelievers" It says not to make friends with Jews and Christians, but a Muslim told me that it ment not to make allies with them. What do you think?
    This is not an attack against Muslims, I just want to have some questions answered by actual Muslims.

    Moderator's Note: This post is not the OP of the thread that was begun with the current title. The original OP was Roman's post just below. I moved several posts from a very related topic to this one and this post was actually older -I'm guessing that it may have actually inspired Roman's OP below, but I could be wrong.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 18, 2007
  2. Zakariya04 and it was Valued Senior Member

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    dear Flame whatever guy

    I hope you are well

    Eeerrr thank you for posting a bit of the Quran.

    would it be possible to tell me who translated the Quran you got that from???

    ~~~~~~~
    cheers
    zak
     
  3. flameofanor5 Not a cosmic killjoy Registered Senior Member

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    No clue lol, that's why I was asking. Is there a mistake in those verses?
     
  4. Roman Banned

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    Why is it that every time someone's like "Yo, Muslim dude, could you explain to me why this verse tells Muslims to kill all the Jews?" the Muslim's like "uh, yeah, which translation is that? Because the translator might be confusing the word 'kill' for something else."

    WTF.
     
  5. pjdude1219 troaty mouth best song ever Valued Senior Member

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    you do know the koran basically states if your not a muslim you should be a christian or a jew right?
     
  6. Roman Banned

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    Well, no, I have no way of knowing that, because appearantly english translations are always wrong.
     
  7. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

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    Heh, I think it's just a method to get out of a uncomfortable situation.
    Quaran after all is an outdated book, at least compared to western civilization timeline.
     
  8. Roman Banned

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    Well, yeah, but I want to hear sammy's reasoning apologetics.
     
  9. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    It also states that unbelievers should be "made to feel oppressed"; it gives this as one of the three possible outcomes for the "kuffar" - death, conversion, or dhimmitude (Q 9:29).
     
  10. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

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    As has happened in Christianity, for a fact, and perhaps in Judaism. Also, what it might say and what Moslems follow are two different things. Obviously, Chrisitanity taken literally and followed strictly By the Book would make a Christian society very unfree and oppressive. The problem is (and luckily it isn't a problem in Lebanon or Syria), revolutionizing the society.
     
  11. Roman Banned

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    Yeah, and then sammy's like "but but that was like better than what they would do at the time!"

    I like how the Lord God Allah is so concerned with contemporary, er, I mean, 7th century middle eastern politics that, rather than lay down a few holy words that were slightly better than current practices, came and out and flatly said "love everyone."

    It's just more proof that Islam is a totally false religion.
     
  12. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

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    If it is indeed false, Judaism must be as well. Christianity too. Seeing as both reolve around the same fundamental beliefs as Islam, or rather, Islam revolves on Abrahamic fundamental beliefs.
     
  13. Roman Banned

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    Well duh.
     
  14. Revolvr Registered Senior Member

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    This statement couldn't be more wrong. Muslims believe the Old and New Testament are both false; that the Jews re-wrote the Old Testament and the Christians all fell for a hoax.

    I can't speak for the Jews, but what Muslims believe is almost the exact antithesis of what Christians believe. They don't believe in "the Fall", nor in Jesus' crucifixion or resurrection, nor the need for salvation, nor of course, salvation through grace. Nor do they believe God is a God of love and grace and forgive thy neighbor and love your enemies.

    Allah in fact doesn't appear to love anyone, least of all Jews and Christians, who are both cursed by Allah and dammed to eternal torture.

    Muhammad tried, in vain, to link Allah to the Jewish and Christian God in order to claim legitimacy. He got particularly pissed at the Jews for rejecting his new cult, hence the eternal hatred of Jews as clearly written in the Qur'an many many times.
     
  15. SkinWalker Archaeology / Anthropology Moderator

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    Moderator's Note: There is a very specific topic that deserves to be discussed without straying. If you would like to discuss another topic, please create that thread. However, I ask that we keep on the topic of translation with regard to Koranic texts, particularly with regard to how this applies to the understanding of non-Arabic speakers.
     
  16. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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  17. SkinWalker Archaeology / Anthropology Moderator

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    Thank you for the links. These are helpful. If you have a link to one of your previous posts, that would be good as well. If I run across it, I'll edit your post above and add it there.
     
  18. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Not worth it. It was a (Q)fest. :D
     
  19. Revolvr Registered Senior Member

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    Thanks S.A.M. I will use one of your links below.

    Let’s look at two different and respected translations of the same verse and see if they are substantially different. Both of these translations, Yusuf and Pickthall, come from the same Muslim web site (soundvision.com) and are commonly used by English speaking Muslims.

    Abdullah Yusuf Ali:
    009.029. Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

    Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall:
    09.29. Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

    Hmmmm, what’s this? Why, they both say the same thing! They both explicitly direct Muslims to make war against non-Muslims, or to subjugate Jews and Christians (People of the Book).

    Lets make sure we have this right. What do respected Muslim jurists (clerics) say about these verses. I suppose both of them could be wrong. But that would be really bad since Muslims use these translations. Lets find out. Please direct your browser to the following link and scroll down to Verse 29:

    http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/ABewley/tawba2.html

    Whats this? As-Sawi and Ibn Juzayy, both agree! Seems we’ve lost nothing in translation. This verse is indeed “a command to fight the People of the Book”. Ibn Kathir says that the dhimmis must be “disgraced, humiliated and belittled”. Ibn Juzayy calls the subjugation a state of abasement. "You pay it while you are standing and I am sitting and the whip hanging is over your head."
     
  20. Adstar Valued Senior Member

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    Yes the quran is clear, but just as some "christians" twist the words of Jesus to preach war and violence, So do some muslims twist the words of the quran to try to make it out to be a book of peace.

    But the Words of Jesus and the words of muhammad are clear enough to those who do not wilfully ignore them and trust in the doctrinal twists of men.


    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
     

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