Trans vs feminists: Are Trans women women?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Mrs.Lucysnow, Aug 11, 2017.

  1. Bells Staff Member

    I don't believe I was addressing Lucysnow...?

    Unless you and she are the same person now?

    I take it you missed the links I had provided earlier that showed that it was men who were more disturbed by transgender women using the women's bathrooms compared to women?

    Are there women against LGBT rights? Well yes. Lucysnow is one of them and she has listed several others who share her abhorrent views. It would help if you kept up and actually read what I wrote, especially in regards to my earlier links about what I had actually said. Just sayin'..


    Take it you're back on the purple coolaid.. You're starting to sound like Wellwisher, only for the other side.

    Notice how none of these people are screaming out about banning the Catholic clergy from using public men's rooms? Nor are they screaming about banning priests from Churches or schools where children attend? There have been no reports of transgender women raping children in a public bathroom. If the goal is to 'save the children' or even 'save the women' as many have tried to argue, or even from an emotional perspective, why aren't they going after known places where these types of assaults happen, continue to happen and have happened repeatedly in the past and not by transgender, but often by the clergy, teachers, relatives, etc?

    Funny that, huh?
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  3. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    How does Germain's quote amount to promoting sexual harassment of young girls? She is right in that you cannot stop a man from staring at a young woman so in what way does it have her condoning or promoting sexual harassment? She simply states that "you can't stop the old man staring at the young girl and lusting. What are you going to do — tell old men that they must be blindfold or something? I don't think that's particularly creepy as long as they understand that they're not…they have no right to lay hands on that person." She's not right? You're going to criminalize the male gaze and call it harassment? Yet you want that old man to have the freedom to just claim he's woman and have entry into women's dressing rooms so he can *cough* stare at women? Maybe he can say its just a transgender stare.

    There is no equivalence between Greer and Coulter. How are you going to disparage all the other feminists who are critical of trans theory? What about Steinem? She spoke out against tennis player Renee Richards and then later apologized by saying "I believe that transgender people, including those who have transitioned, are living out real, authentic lives. Those lives should be celebrated, not questioned. Their health care decisions should be theirs and theirs alone to make." I agree with her statements too but that's different that buying into trans theory. Janice Raymond, Julie Bindel, Sheila Jeffreys, male professor of radical feminism Robert Jensen to name a few have all challenged the theory. Maybe they are all bigots right? In this following link is an interesting study examining both feminism and transgenderism and where they connect and where they come into conflict

    Even Judith Butler agrees that there is a difference between ones sex and ones gender and that one's gender cannot change the physical reality of ones sex. She is a proponent of gender being a social construction. What about Cressida Heyes who tries to create a bridge between feminist and trans theory? Even she "raises worries about a transgender politics which says that individual gender expression ought not be subject to criticism, restriction, or oppression" and she is definitely championing trans folk. You seem to come from that school that says gender expression shouldn't be criticized. Why? Why are you silencing women? Interesting. Maybe its an inverted patriarchal instinct on your part that values men over women even when they present as women. Could be. Anywho both arguments are outlined in that link including the father's of trans thought.

    "Work by John Money, Joan Hampson, and John Hampson on intersexuality (the state of having both female and male biological characteristics) led to the introduction of the technical term gender (1955). They purported to evade the debate between psychology and biology, arguing that while the capacity to learn a gender role and orientation (like a language) was biologically grounded, the specific native role and orientation learned (like language) was contingent upon social environment which became “locked down” at a very early age (1957). Subsequently, the expression gender identity was coined by Robert Stoller and Ralph Greenson in 1964, which helped terminologically separate the notion of social role from psychological sense-of-self. It was ultimately taken up by the likes of Money and Harry Benjamin (Meyerowitz 2002, 117–9), and while debate over etiology continued, views allowing for both biology and social environment in determining gender identity gained somewhat greater prominence (Meyerowitz 2002, 119). Notably, in these views, gender identity is a biological demand to the extent that the capacity for gender identity (as the capacity for language) is viewed as innate. Such a view would seem to suggest that gender, like language, is integral to the human self."
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  5. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    part 2

    Here's what's interesting about Money

    During his professional life, Money was respected as an expert on sexual behavior, especially for allegedly demonstrating that gender was learned rather than innate. Many years later, however, it was revealed that his most famous case was fundamentally flawed. The subject was the sex reassignment of David Reimer (Born as Bruce Reimer), in what later became known as the "John/Joan" case.

    In 1966, a botched circumcision left eight-month-old David Reimer without a penis. Money persuaded the baby's parents that sex reassignment surgery would be in Reimer's best interest. At the age of 22 months, Bruce underwent an orchidectomy, in which his testicles were surgically removed. He was reassigned to be raised as female and given the name Brenda. Money further recommended hormone treatment to which the parents agreed, Money then recommended a surgical procedure to create an artificial vagina, which the parents refused. Money published a number of papers reporting the reassignment as successful.

    David's case came to international attention in 1997 when he told his story to Milton Diamond, an academic sexologist who persuaded Reimer to allow him to report the outcome in order to dissuade physicians from treating other infants similarly. Soon after, Reimer went public with his story, and John Colapinto published a widely disseminated and influential account in Rolling Stone magazine in December 1997.

    In 2000, David and his twin brother (Brian) alleged that Money forced the twins to rehearse sexual acts involving "thrusting movements", with David playing the bottom role. He said as a child, Money forced him go "down on all fours" with his brother, Brian Reimer, "up behind his butt" with "his crotch against" his "buttocks", and that Money forced David to have his "legs spread" with Brian on top. Money also forced the children to take their "clothes off" and engage in "genital inspections". On at "least one occasion", Money reportedly took photographs of the two children doing these activities. Money's rationale for these various treatments was his belief that "childhood 'sexual rehearsal play'" was important for a "healthy adult gender identity".

    Reimer had experienced the visits to Baltimore as traumatic, and when Money started pressuring the family to bring him in for surgery during which a vagina would be constructed, the family discontinued the follow-up visits. From 22 months into his teenaged years, Reimer urinated through a hole that surgeons had placed in the abdomen. Estrogen was given during adolescence to induce breast development. Having no contact with the family once the visits were discontinued, John Money published nothing further about the case.

    For several years, Money reported on Reimer's progress as the "John/Joan case", describing apparently successful female gender development and using this case to support the feasibility of sex reassignment and surgical reconstruction even in non-intersex cases. Money wrote, "The child's behavior is so clearly that of an active little girl and so different from the boyish ways of her twin brother." Notes by a former student at Money's lab state that, during the follow-up visits, which occurred only once a year, Reimer's parents routinely lied to lab staff about the success of the procedure. The twin brother, Brian, later developed schizophrenia.

    On July 1, 2002, Brian was found dead from an overdose of antidepressants. On May 4, 2004, after suffering years of severe depression, financial instability, and marital troubles, David committed suicide by shooting himself in the head with a sawed-off shotgun at the age of 38. Reimer's parents have stated that Money's methodology was responsible for the deaths of both of their sons.

    Money claimed that media response to the exposé was due to right-wing media bias and "the antifeminist movement". He claimed his detractors believed "masculinity and femininity are built into the genes so women should get back to the mattress and the kitchen". However, intersex activists also criticized Money, stating that the unreported failure had led to the surgical reassignment of thousands of infants as a matter of policy. Privately, Money was mortified by the case, colleagues said, and as a rule did not discuss it. Money's own views also developed and changed over the years.

    Yeah Money was groundbreaking. He's also the guy who said "If I were to see the case of a boy aged ten or eleven who's intensely erotically attracted toward a man in his twenties or thirties, if the relationship is totally mutual, and the bonding is genuinely totally mutual ... then I would not call it pathological in any way." He took the position that heterosexuality is another example of a societal and therefore superficial, ideological concept. I'm not surprised really that he would say heterosexuality is a concept because it denies nature much like trans theory denies biological sex reality. Yet we consider him to be the father of gender and you would decry Greer as supporting harassment because she states you cannot stop a man from staring, you cannot even give her the benefit of the doubt of having a real working theory behind her critique, you just claim its based on bigotry. Charming. I think we should see Money as a fraud but he's not dismissed and you base all of your pop psychology on this subject on his theory.
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  7. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member


    part 3

    Do your son's identify as male or are they just male? I suspect they are just male. I don't identify as a woman, I am a woman.

    Bells: "And no, I clearly was not talking about "de-transiotioned women", but actually about transexual men who are now legally required to use the women's change rooms and bathrooms, despite the fact that they are male. You're alright with that? Because they were born with a vagina? Heh.. The irrationality abounds.."

    Transexual men are not 'legally required' to use the woman's change room, again THE LAW STATES THAT ANYONE WHO SELF-IDENTIFIES AS A WOMAN OR A MALE CAN USE THE CORRESPONDING BATHROOM that means all anyone has to do is 'self-identify'. Understand? That's why that man walked into the dressing room to challenge the law! You don't have to do anything but say you are that. It has nothing to do with those who've detransitioned or not or trans women who are beautiful, the law was written SPECIFICALLY to protect men who had not transitioned, men who didn't pass as women, men who hasn't taken hormones or surgery which is the case for most trans people. The law was made to protect those biologically intact!!!! That's why the law in controversial. As I've said before trans women have been using the bathroom forever without controversy.

    By the way I know about surgical menopause because my mother suffered from fibroids. Doesn't change the face that menopause is a natural event in a woman's life. But back on point.

    Read the blogs and watch the videos of de-transitioned men and women and tell me that they did so because of bigotry. They did so because the transition didn't stop their dysphoria, they stopped because they realized their problems laid elsewhere. As a girl I was never bullied for being a girl so I don't see how 'harassment' set's the stage for being a woman, that's just crazy. Kids are bullied for being different. They are bullied if they're too smart, too fat, too geeky, whatever but I've never been bullied because I was a girl or a teenage girl neither by boys nor by other girls.

    If I had a trans child I would have the presence of mind to remember that anxiety can be relieved in a variety of ways and I wouldn't go about filling them full of hormones stop puberty.

    Within its clinical practice guidelines for the treatment of transsexual persons, the Endocrine Society suggests that for most children with GID, the condition will notpersist into adolescence. Acknowledging thatpercentages differ between studies, the society maintains that "the large majority (75-80%) of prepubertal children with a diagnosis of GID in childhood do not turn out to be transsexual in adolescence." The society further elaborates its opinion on the matter:"Clinical experience suggests that GID can be reliably assessed only after the first signs of puberty."
    Concurring on this matter, UCSF states that the small amount of data collected "supports the notion that gender constancy is certainly in place in adolescence." They find that adolescents who present with a transgender identity go on to be transgender adults "100 percent of the time."

    I mean they're your kids and its fine if you want to experiment on their bodies but its not something I would do since THE LARGE MAJORITY OF PREPUBERTAL CHILDREN DO NOT TURN OUT TRANSSEXUAL! Not good ole Bells. She would have all the compassion to start them off right off the bat and make assumptions (as she's prone to do) much like Money did in the past to the detriment of those he was treating.
  8. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    Not different rules just a different bathroom. Are you suggesting that unless we share the same toilet and the same dressing rooms that men and women are not equal? Do we have to share the same space to be equal? If so does it mean we are breaking diversity laws if a neighborhood is made up of only one race? We value diversity are we going to engineer neighborhoods of one of everything to make sure its diverse? Do we have to tear down the dressing room because only one sex has access to it? Is the bathroom a stage for sex like schools were for race meaning is it about being separate but equal in your mind?

    The male gaze has nothing to do with rape specifically, here is a funny video on the male gaze.

    On spousal abuse?

    The U.S. Department of Justice has some data on intimate partner violence, but not about how often this violence is a significant factor in the woman’s incarceration. In California, a prison study found that 93 percent of the women who had killed their significant others had been abused by them. That study found that 67 percent of those women reported that they had been attempting to protect themselves or their children when they wound up killing their partner. In New York State, 67 percent of women sent to prison for killing someone close to them were abused by that person. But these are just two specific studies; no governmental agency collects data on how frequently abuse plays a direct role to prison nationwide.

    Oh I totally agree with you when it comes to men defending themselves for a woman's abuse. You're not going to get an argument from me there.

    I think there is a difference between adding a ramp and having to renovate a space to accommodate separate stalls, if you did it in such a way as to make it comfortable for women you would just end up with another space entirely for them. As I've said before there have been no incidents that I am aware of whereby a female who looks like a female and dresses like a female has declared herself male just to get into the area. Funny isn't it? That women are not dying to get into the men's dressing room? Funny isn't it that every incident is about it happening the other way around. Women are not going to prison for a violent crime against men and then suggesting after some time that they are men and should go into male population. Yet it mysteriously keeps happening the other way around. There have also been no complaints by men of women who are biologically intact women using their toilets. It seems as if the mens' room is as sacrosanct as ever.
  9. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    So? I bet those same mother's would expect to be in a separate changing room in bathrooms and changing rooms. Same thing with France. The women who go bare breasted on the beach are not leaving their clothes off in any other area and the French still have room for Des Hommes et Des Femmes. Funny right. As for the event its just an event like riding your bike naked in Portland. Here's what isn't happening, no one is riding around naked on a regular basis. Why not? Why would someone be arrested for being naked at any moment on the street when they can ride naked on a special occasion. And why is it important to you that it not be so is my question?

    And why exactly is this not important to you? To me that's what is more curious is why the following doesn't concern you.

    TORONTO - A sexual predator who falsely claimed to be transgender and preyed on women at two Toronto shelters was jailed indefinitely on Wednesday.
    Justice John McMahon declared Christopher Hambrook — who claimed to be a transgender woman named Jessica — was a dangerous offender.

    The judge said he imposed the indefinite prison sentence because there’s a great risk that Hambrook will commit more sex crimes and require strict supervision if he returns to the community.

    Its interesting that you're okay with the risk being posed to women who cannot even go to a shelter to get away from a male predator. Its as if the superficiality of coed this and that is more important than the concerns women are raising.
  10. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member


    Yeah and? What your point?

    And yet you keep bring it back to being the men's fault.

    That not an argument, that is just, heck not even an insult, just pathetic, that what that is, pathetic.

    Again what about the male gaze? You seem to intentional miss that, something must be done about the male gaze should it not?

    because it is not guided by reason, just emotion.
  11. Neddy Bate Valued Senior Member

    It seems to me the whole issue here is how well a trans woman passes as a woman, and how well a trans man passes as a man. The two worriers, Mrs.Lucysnow and birch, have both pretty much said that this would not really be an issue as long as the trans person passes well, and minds their own business. I don't think even MrsLucysnow wants to force a bearded transman to use the ladies room just because that person happens to have a vagina under their cargo pants. That would of course be counter-productive, because if it became routine for women to see bearded people in the ladies room, then there would be no way to know which might be transmen, or which might be regular men getting their perv on. So can we all agree there is no need for a bathroom law which forces people to use the facilities that match their genitals?

    The two of them do seem to be worried that a regular man might walk into the ladies room, and no one would be allowed to tell him to leave. There was a case like that in Washington state, where a regular man entered the women's locker room, but the Washington transgender access law did not protect him, and he was asked to leave. No one called the police in that case, but if they had, he probably would have been arrested. Transgender protection laws are not designed to protect the behavior of pervs, they are designed to allow trans people to live their lives like everyone else. So, can we all get on with our lives now?
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2017
  12. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    1. Do you remember a little something called "segregation"? do you remember "separate but equal" they had separate toilets back then as well, how did that work out?
    2. We have these transgender people, who you cite some of them are not willing or have the finances to surgically make themselves look like women, and yet they want to use your restroom.

    Well I think Bells as arguments for the rape fear you have.

    Did you see the video with the naked bikers I posted, how many of them got raped for biking while naked?

    So you speak for all women now? Has it ever occurred to you that for men we don't have comfortable, we have "man up", in this age of equality please "women up" and live with transgender people in your rest rooms, consider someone else comfort for once.

    well that because one sex is prone to being scared of silly things and the other sex is prone to wanting to defend 'my lady from what ever silly things they are scare of. Now now I'm saying on average, there are certainly many people outside the norm, there are some women like Bells that proclaims she is not scared, and then there are women like you that demand comfort because of, what? vagina?

    Probably because female prisons are a lot nicer, and less butt rape in there, though I have heard stories about broomsticks.

    I happen to recall how I was pointing this out a few pages ago, saying men don't care about women using male restrooms, so why the fuck do you care if a man is using the women's restroom? And then you gave me a long rant about how it is different for women, how you feel uncomfortable because of the sexualization of your bodies and the male gaze and finally your fear of rape by transgender perverts, and lions and tigers, oh my.
  13. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    I would agree with you that most trans women don’t have an agenda and just want to blend into the world as male or female. Agreed. Its trans activists who are pushing an agenda.

    Okay let me ask you this? If trans women and trans men who are actually rare in society but here nevertheless have always been here and I assume have always used a bathroom somewhere at some point. What have they been doing for all these years before there was a bathroom bill? Do you know? They went into the bathroom that corresponded to how they look. The new law states that anyone ANYONE who simply self-identifies as a specific sex can use these spaces which is why all of a sudden male perpetrators against women are asking to be moved to the female section of prisons. Its why all of a sudden women are walking into their gyms and finding some guy in there. Its the reason why the pool incident is taking place. Why wasn’t this happening before when trans women were quietly using the rest rooms and dressing rooms without any difficulty? Isn’t the wording of a law important? If you force people to use the toilet that corresponds to how they look all of those men would have been forced to use men spaces and not women spaces. I am questioning why they even need a law.

    No its not the same and as a woman of color I’m beginning to resent the analogy. Why? Because white women have been using black women to care for their children and cook their food and tend to them while they were dressing from the beginning of slavery! They didn’t get white women to fill these roles they used their black female slaves! So its not the same. Jim Crow was meant to keep blacks segregated AFTER slavery was abolished, after white’s loss control over the entire personhood of black men and women. Its a false analogy.

    Nope, I still disagree. Men who identify as men and have not gone through reassignment and HRT should not be allowed in a woman’s dressing room. Why? For the same reason why they shouldn’t be allowed in female shelters. There has already been incidents of whereby a predator has gained access by simply ‘self-identifying’. It also goes contrary to how citizens view the issue

    Until now there has been very little data on what most Americans think about the policies that transgender advocates seek.And so in the summer of 2015, I conducted an online nationally representative survey that included a question about a recent California law—which many in the transgender movement consider to be a model bill–that allows students to “participate in sex-segregated programs, activities, and facilities” based on self-perception, regardless of sex assigned at birth.

    Fifty-six percent of respondents supported formal policies protecting transgender students from discrimination. However, only 37 percent said they would support having their state pass a law similar to California’s. Only 30 percent supported transgender students using a restroom or locker room based upon gender identity rather than birth sex.

    No don’t take the pedophile argument literally. I was just pointing out that the same argument used to advance homosexuality and transgenderism is also used to advance pedophilia by pedophile advocates.

    There are way fewer female sexual predators to men. Males are reported to be abusers in 80-95% of reported cases.

    Another stat puts it simply “While most sex offenders are male, sometimes sex offenses are committed by female offenders.”

    So the ‘women do it too’ is a non-existent comparison. There is no comparison. The gay woman entering a shelter so she can abuse the women is a non-existent comparison.

    Its bigoted to claim that 95% of sexual assault is by men? That makes someone a bigot for stating that based on those numbers its dangerous to allow just any man who self-identifies access to women’s spaces? Ha!

    No! Bells asked me to define what is a woman and I showed her a diagram that showed her the difference between what we call gender and what we call sex. I then went on to describe in much detail how sex and gender are different and how the feminist vision of gender abolishes any kind of standard based on gender but abolishing gender does not abolish biological sex. If you read that entire post I had made for Bells you would know that.
  14. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Pretty sure there are nudist that are just working around naked in states and countries where that is legal. My argument is why does it matter if a man is naked in front of you?

    He, she, it, was arrested and jailed indefinitely... what is the problem? There is always risk in life, freedom means risk, live with that. What your asking for is other people's freedom be curtailed because your fear they are a danger to you, because just the possibility make you uncomfortable.
  15. Neddy Bate Valued Senior Member

    My understanding of the law is that only trans people are protected, not just "anyone." The guy you used as an example from the women's shelter was arrested for his crimes. He has no defense under any transgender protection laws.
  16. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    Its the exception that supports the rule not the other way around. Women born without a uterus or without ovaries are rare but even without those reproductive units these same women show up as women on a chromosomal level, a biological level. Its like claiming that one cannot say babies are born with one head because a rare number are born with two (co-joined twins). Its the exception that reinforces the rule. And why is it that you have to seek out rare aberrations to make your point? I can go and find two headed babies too! I am saying that being a woman is a physical experience, we can talk about women under patriarchy and all that but all women do not feel they suffer under patriarchy or even recognize it. What we share as women is not an ideological union or a social cultural union but a physical experience. If the physical nature of woman wasn't important then why are trans women so anxious to have that body? There would be no point in it if it were just a matter of the mind or the brain.

    I didn't say that I said you don't understand the bulk of evidence on this subject which isn't conclusive in any way supporting your position. All we know is that transgender people speak of an experience and now they are searching for physical evidence of such an experience. Even this trans man agrees with me on this which is why he says

    "Part of me believed I would never get a period. When it came in the school cafeteria when I was 16, I refused to tell my father about it. He was the person who forced gender roles the hardest on the entire family, to the point where the “girls” weren’t allowed to cut our hair shorter than our shoulders. My mother worked late nights, so instead of getting help from anyone, I used a sock in place of a pad or tampon for a few days.

    But much to my surprise, I loved my period. I’m a naturally sensitive and emotional guy, and my menstrual cycle pushed me to slow down and contemplate my array of feelings. It also forced me to feel my body. As a trans person closeted until 24, I had a very distant relationship with my body. Getting my period forced me to deal with it—and showed me the body type I was born with is a mind-blowing thing. My body had the capability to produce a human life and it can clean itself out! Alas, I haven’t had a period in five years because I am on testosterone. Technically, I could take less testosterone, get a period and still look as masculine as I do. But ultimately, I chose not to have one. My gender dysphoria, which is eased through testosterone and surgery, outweighs my sentimentality toward my period. But just because I choose not to menstruate doesn’t mean I feel 100 percent secure in my body. There’s a piece of me that remains joined to the idea of having a period while simultaneously uneasy about it. When I was with my ex, I synced up to her period—even though I didn’t get one. I would be at work and suddenly get hit with severe menstrual cramps. I’d text her and ask, “Did you just start bleeding?” and she’d respond, “Yes! Do you have my cramps again?” While the cramps were inconvenient, I enjoyed being linked to someone in that way. It felt special and magnetic. As a man who has had a period in the past, I also like knowing instinctively how to care for partners who get their periods. I know exactly what muscles to rub, when to run a bath, and how to be a bit gentler than usual.

    But when I had sex with my ex, a woman who only dated straight cis men before me, I would have moments of genital dysphoria and sometimes have to stop having sex because I didn’t feel male enough. Additionally, because I’m a man, I have never really felt like I could wholly bond with most women. But I also felt like I could never relate to cisgender (non-trans) men because of my body type. That’s a lonely existence, and uniting with others who also had a monthly period felt soothing. It’s something I really miss now.

    Recently, to connect with my best friend Emily’s new boyfriend, I made a stupid joke about her getting her period because she was emotional. As soon as we were alone, I apologized to her. I felt embarrassed for acting out in a sexist way toward one of my closest friends, a girl I’ve known since high school. I wanted her partner to like me because I love her like a sister, but I used her body as the butt of a joke in that process. A body that used to be a lot like mine. A body type that is exploited, degraded, and viewed as less than in many cultures, including our own. The real joke here was that he probably wanted my affirmation as much as I wanted his.

    My back-and-forth relationship with my period and anatomy, and the social constructs surrounding them, has been endless. Recently, I booked a date for December to undergo bottom surgery. I hope getting surgery will help me in my moments of anxiety. I still have conflicting feelings about it, but I’ve realized my need to stay on this level of testosterone and have surgery trumps my desire to keep some of the body parts I currently possess. Yes, I am grieving the future loss of parts of myself that I was born with. I’ve had them my whole life and I feel attached to them. I also fear never being able to have children, though I don’t think I could ever emotionally handle being off testosterone long enough to carry a child, or grip the dysphoria and transphobia accompanied with being a pregnant trans man. I think being on hormone replacement therapy and still having ovaries isn’t good for my body or emotional wellbeing, either. I am very relieved to start living in a body that feels right for me.

    In the end, all I can do now is be grateful for being given the ability to experience things many men have not. It’s given me a special perspective and a level of self-awareness that isn’t offered to most. I do believe, too, that my body will still be magical even after I get surgery. I look forward to feeling a sense of freedom and adapting to my new body. I am very excited about the prospect of post-surgery sex! If I can be really honest though, I look most forward to redeeming that six-year-old on the way to baseball practice."

    Are you discounting her experience to her connection to her female body? Its the same connection I have to mine.
  17. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    Part 2

    Bells: "what other excuses are you going to give for your bigotry at this rate?"

    To this statement I will remind you of what a feminist who agrees with your point of view said on censoring and harassing women on this subject. Lauren Rosewarne, a senior lecturer in feminism, gender and sexuality at the University of Melbourne said

    "We should be able to discuss these issues in a non-hostile environment, where people don't have to feel like they are going to be attacked for being sexist or transphobic or homophobic simply because they are struggling to understand what is, for many people, a 'new' issue. This isn't how a society evolves."

    Calling me a bigot hasn't changed my mind one bit during this discussion. I haven't resorted to calling you names even though I think your position on this doesn't make any sense.

    I will remind you of what is going on in academic circles right now "You can't speak publicly any more at events about women's experiences that trans women don't have – having vaginas, abortion, menstruating – because that alienates trans people," said one woman in her 20s who works for a prominent women's welfare service in Melbourne. She told The Sunday Age that many younger feminists like her were reluctant to speak out because the backlash is "terrifying".

    "The fact that women have vaginas means something for our safety, for our health and hygiene, it means something for our sexuality. The experiences of the majority of women are being sidelined, which is really problematic because that's real misogyny when women can't speak of their own experiences any more."

    And it seems you are suggesting that this be the case and that its a good thing? What is feminism without reproductive rights? What are reproductive rights mean in the context of feminism if a woman's body is suddenly being declared unreal or insignificant. What about a woman's experience? When Rose Mcgowan lost it on Chris Jenner when he said "the hardest thing about being a woman is figuring out what to wear" by saying

    "You're a woman now? Well, f---ing learn that we have had a VERY different experience than your life of male privilege," McGowan said in a Facebook post she later deleted after facing accusations of transphobia. Being a woman comes with a lot of baggage. The weight of unequal history. You'd do well to learn it. You'd do well to wake up. Woman of the year? Not by a long f---ing shot."

    Was she wrong? Was she supposed to accept Jenner, who only put on a dress yesterday the platform to tell the world what the most difficult thing is for a woman? I mean he's a woman now right? He lived the bulk of his life as a man but so what all along he's felt like a woman and so we must accept him as such. I say bullshit. You can say what the hell you like but my response to that notion isn't going to budge.

    The woman who writes the article asks "Is it hate speech against a persecuted minority? Or a difficult but important conversation our increasingly gender-diverse community needs to have?", I say its a conversation that needs to be had, you seem to think its hate speech.

    Check out the challenges with trans students going on at Wellesely College, a traditional women's college

    I'm not plagiarizing Bells I am giving you both quotes and links which come from the guardian.

    I agree and that's my point, the man was not a transgender woman but the law doesn't say he must be, it just says he has to identify as such. And yes there were laws against men going into a woman's bathroom and that law has been weakened by these cases. Men don't have to do a thing to gain access, that's the law. Like I said trans women and trans men have been using the bathroom forever and didn't need a law, all this law does is encourage predatory behavior.

    You want me to consider your links but you don't want to consider mine which completely contradicts much of what you are saying. So...
  18. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    Taking a break will answer the rest of the posts later.
  19. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

    That doesn't apply in this case because you aren't arguing in good faith, you are trying to use the ambiguity of a different form of womanhood to belittle the serious issue of trans rights, about which you are ideologically opposed.
  20. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    How the other half lives

  21. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Why do you keep assigning beliefs and assumptions to me not visible in any of my posting?
    I agree your posting in response to the other guy was irrelevant and ridiculous. You referred me to it as "covering" an issue you instead avoided.
    Your argument is indeed ridiculous, in part because it rests on false claims about homosexuality, pedophilia, and transgender status. Stop making these false claims, and arguing from them.
    My point is that your reservation of women's restrooms etc as safe spaces holds for trans women as well.
    No, it isn't. It most radically is nothing of the kind - those people are undergoing major surgery to handle some of those biological differences. They take those differences very, very seriously.

    And this kind of incomprehension on your part - simply not paying attention to what other people are doing and saying - is frequently on display in this thread and about this matter. Liked this:
    Nothing in your post there can be read as Soloway "calling herself binary". The exact opposite: she objects to binary classification, explicitly, in the part you bolded. She doesn't like it, and she thinks it's the source of much trouble.

    Meanwhile: where did you get the idea that Soloway was somehow betraying femaleness or in conflict with feminism by preferring the way she is treated when less sociologically or stereotypically effeminate? From the opinions of the author you quoted?
  22. Bells Staff Member

    Leering at women on the street is a form of sexual harassment, Lucysnow.

    Why don't you read up on what she has said about child marriage, where young girls are married off as children, Lucysnow.

    How about female genital mutilation?

    Most consider child marriages to be a scourge, a horror forced on little girls, where these children are forced into marriages against their will, some before they are even 10 years of age. Greer think's it's not really that bad for these little girls.

    You keep defending Greer.. Which really, is not only sad, it's downright disturbing just how far you will go to support your own bigotry towards transgender men and women.

    You agree with her that an old man lusting after a little girl is not "particularly creepy"?

    Guess you haven't reached the bottom of that gutter yet..

    You have spent pages refusing to even acknowledge they are women, you have disparaged them, you have compared them to sexual predators who are a danger women and children, you have stereotyped them, you have compared them to people who are severely mentally ill and disturbed, you have mocked them cruelly and mercilessly, you have attempted to deny their very existence by denying their reality and who they are.

    And you think that what you have been doing here has just been you not buying into trans theory?

    Which study of Money's did I post?

    The study's I posted were actually biological studies, not psychology and to my knowledge, are not connected with Money. You have been the one posting from right wing religious websites, posting a widely discredited paper by two people who twisted the data in a way that would make anti-vaxxer's proud..

    You have whined that a man who practiced conversion therapy on children was summarily fired from his position and his clinic closed, because of the damage conversion therapy does to people, especially children.

    And now you are quoting Money, someone I have not even discussed or brought up and you are acting as though I have been defending him while correctly accusing Greer of supporting harassment of women and girls..

    You live in a strange fantasy world, don't you?

    To wit, I never discussed or brought up Money, nor have I supported his opinions and views or his works.. I do not consider him to be the "father of gender", so who is this "we" of which you speak?
  23. Bells Staff Member

    They identify as male.


    The bathroom debate and attempts to deny transgender men and women their human rights over the last couple of years passed you by?

    That man that walked into the dressing room committed a crime. Why and how? Because he was not a transgender woman. Get it yet?

    Do you understand that part, yet? He walked into a female dressing room and declared he was allowed to be there. No, he actually was not allowed to be there. Transgender women are allowed to be there because they legally identify as women. Do you understand the difference?

    I say I went through a surgical menopause. You respond that I was wrong, that menopause comes after a period of no menstruation after one's last bleed and then you told me how your mother and doctors would disagree with me about the surgical menopause I endured. I correct you error, yet again, and you respond that you know about surgical menopause, when you clearly did not considering your initial response to it? This isn't even funny anymore.

    And no, not all women go through menopause, because some women are born without ovaries or any sexual organs.

    Having read some of those blogs in the past, I'll pass thanks. Because they are contrived, they are often twisting these poor women to suit their own needs and purposes and so full of hatred and bigotry, that I'd probably find more sane people at a Klan bake stand.

    No, seriously, you keep getting your information from right wing religious websites and these blogs and you are touting them as fact. You aren't even researching what you are posting. Like that so called journal you tried to pass off as legitimate. This is ridiculous Lucysnow. You are better than this. What's the deal?

    I had always considered you to be a lovely person, fair, moral, dignified and intelligent. And now I see you spouting bigoted stereotype, posting from right wing religious websites and blogs and posting videos from bigots. What's the deal?

    Considering how you defended a doctor who was practicing conversion therapy on children, I can only hope for your child's sake that they are not transgender.

    What's going to be next?

    Are you going to accuse me of beating my children up too? Are you going to accuse me of selling them to the modern slave trade?

    This is pathetic, Lucysnow. You are now inferring that I am somehow or other abusing my children..

    I see you still haven't reached the bottom of that gutter.

    And what you keep ignoring is that being a transgender woman is also a physical experience and it is just as distinctive to what women endure. Understand now?

    No, instead you have made negative stereotypes, disparaged transgender women, inferred that age old conservative 'sexual predators' argument, you compared them to those who are severely mentally ill and mentally disturbed, dismissed the violence committed against them, boasted about their suicide numbers, dismissed and refused to acknowledge them as women. Naw, you haven't resorted to name calling at all...

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    You know, a very dear and old friend of mine recently reached the 2 year mark of her transition, after decades of pain and suffering.

    And watching her go through the process, what she is experiencing, her feelings both physical and psychological.. It is distinctly female. There is nothing male about it. You want me to tell her she's not a woman because the distinctly female experiences she is going through is not real because you don't think she has a connection to her female body? Her experiences and her connection to her body is distinctly female.

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