Trans vs feminists: Are Trans women women?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Mrs.Lucysnow, Aug 11, 2017.

  1. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    9,879
    Yeah but we're not discussing climate change, if we were you'd be correct to dismiss her opinion. In this case were discussing women and transgenderism, she's qualified enough to give her opinion on that.
    I saw your post and wheelchairs are not comparable unless the following situation is okay with you

    A Seattle, Wash. community is in uproar after a man undressed in the women’s locker room at a local pool, seemingly to test a new rule that allows transgender people to use the bathroom of their gender identity, according toKing 5 News.
    An unidentified man wearing board shorts walked into the women’s bathroom of Evans Pool, in the heart of Seattle, on Monday evening.
    The women inside the locker room at the time attempted to kick him out, but the guy refused and said “the law has changed and I have the right to be here.”
    The man was referring to a local rule passed in December that mandates all public restrooms to allow transgender people to use bathroom assigned to their gender identity.
    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...oom-test-transgender-ruling-article-1.2535150

    All a man has to do is say he's a woman, he doesn't even have to make the effort to put on a dress never mind reassignment surgery. Which brings me to this gem right here "If your idea of a "biological reality" includes the sociological race classifications of the post-slavery US, you are a long way from ever making sense about gender. Rachel Dolezal's identity as a "black" - or "white" - person has nothing to do with biology." Yes race is a biological reality, the social race classifications at the time are a little like the transgender rule of this time in that is a false classification. The racial classification is built on the notion that blacks were not human nor equal to other races. No one is saying that men are not equal to women, no one is saying that a transgender person isn't equal to a woman but everything being equal doesn't make a transgender person a woman anymore than a black person using facilities previously prohibited make them white. I am not making a case about gender, I'm making a case for biology, I would refer you to the initial post I made towards Bells.

    I asked you to consider the question of whether a little boy in a dress playing with dolls is a girl or a little boy in a dress playing with dolls and you're response is "No, it doesn't" but you don't answer the question (fear I suspect) and you don't give even one example of why that question is wrong but I can guess why.

    Its not a question of whether Jill Soloway is wrong or not, I said it was disturbing and here's why. She was neither famous before the show and now she is, this is perhaps why she is being treated with more respect and being taken more seriously not because she cut her hair short and wears a man's suit. She doesn't look any less female. The message she is basically sending is that for a woman to be taken seriously she has to present herself as male, so yeah I find that disturbing, especially when she presented as a feminine woman, mother and wife when she created the show and became popular. She was not dismissed nor her idea put on the shelf because she was a female creator.

    Is she wrong to call herself 'non-binary'? Its nonsense plain and simple. She is not intersex, she's not a male and she is definitely a female, calling herself 'their' or 'them' is just silly and doesn't make her situation a reality anymore than calling herself a pony.

    Why is the woman who de-transitioned crazy? Why are you dismissing her story? She doesn't sound crazy at all she sounds honest. I would posit that de-transitioning is no crazier than transitioning to begin with except in her de-transitioning she has to live with the permanent changes made to her body through HRT and surgery.
     
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  3. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    I also have no problem with co-ed bathrooms. Why is it then that transgender women are not content with co-ed bathrooms? Why are they insisting on using toilets designated to women? Unless your argument is that women do not have the right to a space where men cannot enter (dressing locker rooms and bathrooms). So a woman who doesn't want a man in the same bathroom as her is a bigot? Or girls in HS who don't want their male peers in their gym changing rooms are bigots? I guess lesbians are also bigots for not wanting to have sex with trans women because they prefer women? Is this your argument? If it is then just say so and we would have to agree to disagree. If you look like a woman, a woman who has transitioned doesn't have this problem, the problem only extends to men who are still biologically men having access to female spaces that were separated for a reason.

    "That's like claiming a black man raised in Chicago doesn't understand the "black experience" because everyone knows that the only real blacks are from Africa."

    You poor pet. There is no such thing as a black experience anymore than there is such a thing as a 'white experience', which is why the idea of the 'black experience' came out of the US and not Africa but that's neither here nor there. The only thing comparable in your statement is that blacks are just as black in the US as they are in England as they are in Africa or the Caribbean unless it relates to the physical reality of being black (hair texture, melanin protection against the sun). Since there is no singular cultural experience for black people the only binding reality is that around skin color. You want to know what a black person from the Caribbean has with the guy from Chicago? Nothing, zilch. They share the same color but they come from a different culture where they listen to different music, have different verbal expressions, eat different food and share a completely different heritage. Are you trying to say all blacks are alike?
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2017
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  5. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    I don’t know if its deliberate or not but you didn’t understand my argument. Here is how that same diagram would look in a feminist utopia


    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!






    You see we agree that gender is made up of social and cultural stereotypes BUT SEX IS NOT! It is a scientific biological fact!

    Yes Bells its a stereotype which is why I posted it. The biological differences between men and women led to gender stereotypes. It wasn’t my answer to the question ‘what is a woman’, you would have had to read all of my post to know that. In short male and female are biological realities and gender is a construct. So yes a male has specific biological qualities but that doesn’t necessarily mean he will express his gender in those stereotypical ways.

    Transgenderism doesn’t diminish nor change biology, that’s my point. I am offended by the notion that the only thing a man has to do to gain access to women’s spaces and resources is by simply declaring himself a female which isn’t possible. You can change the way you show gender but you cannot change whether you are male or female which is why a man even after gender reassignment surgery are still of the same sex as they were before surgery because its impossible to change ones sex.

    It doesn’t matter how the child identifies. Being male or female is an objective reality not a choice. Wearing a dress is a choice, wearing mens clothing is a choice, wearing make up or not or heels is a choice. I can have my breasts removed but that doesn’t make me any less female which is true down to the DNA.

    You keep asking me questions that makes me think you didn’t read my post. Feminism is absolutely against gender stereotypes, I spent an entire post claiming this.

    You write this an then accuse me of having a jumbled argument “The very idea of denying women their sexuality because they do not fit into the mold set for women by men, is astonishing to me.” Who is denying a woman her sexuality? How could you even deny someone their sexuality? We’re not discussing gays and straights. We’re discussing whether it is actually possible to change one’s sex from male to female and the answer is no. Its not possible, the only thing possible is to change the appearance of being male or female without any underlying biological reality behind it.


    I leave out gender identity because its irrelevant. When Amelia Earhart donned short hair and got into an airplane she was asserting an alternative gender identity at that time. So what? That is besides the point. Gender is different from sex and we are discussing sex, not sexual orientation but male female sex. Sex is a biological reality like black skin on a black person, it cannot be changed. A black person could start using hair straightener and bleach the skin and it still doesn’t make them caucasian. Just saying. Shoot the messenger if you like. Identity is what drove Dolezal to declare herself black. So my question is is she black just because she identifies herself as such?


    What’s between your legs is not a stereotype Bells its the reality which allowed you to carry and bear children. Like I said I can choose to be identified as a pony and people might even humor me out of courtesy but that wouldn’t make me one. I could identify as a Russian princess but yet again it doesn’t make it true. I can identify myself as ‘non-binary’ and walk down the street and everyone will still see me as a female because I am a female. That’ was my point concerning Jill Soloway, she can say she’s non-binary but that doesn’t mean anything, people will still see her as a woman a female even with her buzz cut and men’s clothing.


    Is it a stereotype that a woman can carry a baby?

    Is it a stereotype that a woman menstruates?

    Is a male with a penis and scrotum a stereotype?

    Is XY and XX a stereotype? How about DNA?

    I hope one day when you hit menopause and start to complain about hot flashes someone comes along and mocks you by saying "That's just a stereotype Bells, women don't have go through menopause, its all in your head" and then you can think of being male and it will all go away. Ha!


    Women in dresses and men in pants can be a stereotype, but her vagina and his penis are not.

    LOL! Yes Bells, the author of The Female Eunuch is a misogynist, she stereotypes women (eye rolls). I’ll tick you under those who’ve never read her work. Which is why Helen Lewis, editor of the New Statesman describes Greer’s feminist legacy as follows “Germaine Greer’s value to feminism is as a destructive force, tearing down stereotypes and smashing taboos. She is living testament to the idea that women don't have to do what has always been expected of them: be good girls, get married, have kids, be nice and shut up. As a public intellectual, she had self-confidence you could bounce rocks off. She was never ashamed of being clever. She demanded to be heard.”


    She is after all the one who is quoted as saying “Yet if a woman never lets herself go, how will she ever know how far she might have got? If she never takes off her high-heeled shoes, how will she ever know how far she could walk or how fast she could run?” But Greer is anti-woman because she doesn’t accept transwomen as women. Its almost too hysterical and ridiculous to have to respond to.

    Again you mistake gender for sex. The vagina is sex and gender is mostly a construct. The vagina is not a construct it is a biological reality for any female. I mean when your children were born did you wait until they were of speaking age before you named them? Before you decided they were whatever sex they are? Or did you take a look at the adorable little penis and ignore it and start calling it it or maybe ‘non-binary’ because who knows? Did your little girl (if you have one) have to wait for her ‘identity’ to kick in or did you just look at the bottom bit and declare her female? Did you chastise the midwife or doctor for stereotyping your son because he or she said “Its a boy!”? Is that what happened Bells?

    I don’t know which blogger you’re referring to so please link or give more info. Transexual men are women, they have every right to use the women’s room, especially if they haven’t had reassignment surgery. Are you discussing the de-transitioned woman? Yeah well she’s a poster child for how crazy it all is. She was convinced she was trans when she was just a butch lesbian and now that she has de-transitioned she is stuck with some major male features but she’s still a woman!!!! And she refers to herself as a woman.

    The trajectory from little girl to woman is a biological reality, sorry if that upsets you. Social upbringing is a separate subject all together and I have been quite straight on this point.

    Bells “What of the little girl who are forced to live the life of a little boy from infancy through to adulthood and when she reaches adulthood, comes out as a woman she has always identified herself as being? Is she not a woman? Or would you identify her as a man?”

    Why would a little girl be forced to live the life of a little boy? Are you stereotyping a little girl because she likes to play boy games and wear boy clothes? Can’t a little girl wear boy clothes and play boy games? Why would a little girl ‘come out’ as a woman at adulthood? Its a natural trajectory. I’ll answer the question like this. A little girl who plays boys games and wears boy clothes is still a little girl. A man who likes to wear women’s dresses and heels, calls himself Jane is still a man he’s just a man who wear’s women’s dresses and heels and calls himself Jane.

    What about a little boy who is forced to live the life of a girl from infancy through to adulthood, despite never identifying as female and experiencing everything as a little boy?

    Well that’s just it a little girl cannot experience being a boy. She will never have her balls drop, she will never have her voice change, she will never experience wet dreams nor what it feels like to have your penis miraculously rise from the slightest touch or thought when the testosterone starts to kick in at puberty. She will though grow breasts, and vagina hair and have her period, that she can expect. Unless of course Bells you believe in the ‘female brain’. Do you oh feminist Bells believe in the nonexistent female brain? Are you a woman Bells because you think you are? I am not a female because I have female thoughts I am female because I have a female body and chemistry, its fundamental. Material reality is fundamental.

    You don’t have to explain trans theory to me I understand it quite well and I’m saying its wrong. You are not a male or female simply by identifying as such, you can see yourself as having masculine or feminine qualities or a mixture of both but you’re still only male, female or intersex.

    No one is claiming tans people should have no rights. The question in is are trans women women, not do trans people deserve human or civil rights.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2017
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  7. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    So she's wrong, and that was the question.
    Whose idea of "female" is she?
    Is she required to accept the categorization of anyone addressing her at any time?
    Her opinion on any scientific matter is completely unreliable. She has demonstrated willful carelessness at best, more likely agenda driven dismissal, of basic scientific principle and established intellectual approach.
    The number of people in wheelchairs is directly comparable, and quite similar. Try to read more carefully, eh?
    And I didn't bother to address that. Other posters dealt sufficiently, in my view.
    That was clearly a response to something else. Do try to read more carefully, ok?
    No US sociological race is a biological reality. Biologically, the US races make no sense.
    No, you aren't. You are mistaking sociological features for biological attributes.
    You described her story as illustrating "madness". I'm not dismissing her story, I'm dismissing your argument from it, and any similar argument from any similar video.
    - - - - -
    You seem to have misunderstood that post as well. So it isn't just my awkward posting at fault. Reread?

    Meanwhile: There is black experience in Chicago, and it's different from white experience. Black and white are US racial categories, and the people so categorized in the US definitely have different characteristic experiences associated with that categorization.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2017
  8. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    9,879
    LOL! Oh boohoo Tiassa. I don’t anyone nor am I being a hypocrite. Someone who actually goes through the entire process of reassignment will always use the women’s restroom and never needed a law to do so. The law is not for them, the law is for men who classify themselves as women without even bothering to go through the process if they ever do.

    SEATTLE, Washington, February 18, 2016 (LifeSiteNews) - A man twice entered the changing room of a swimming pool and began disrobing, once in front of a young girls' swim team, saying transgender policies gave him the right to do so.
    The unidentified man entered Evans pool in Seattle near Green Lake last Monday, February 8, and began taking off his shirt in front of female patrons.

    When asked what he was doing, he said, "The law has changed and I have a right to be here."

    "Seeing this individual in the locker room, parents of swim team members (girls) and women who had paid for lap swim became alarmed and alerted our front desk staff," said Seattle Parks spokesman David Takami in a statement. "In response, an Evans pool staff member entered the women's locker room and asked the man to leave." They offered both the man and the girls the opportunity to use a family changing room.

    He left, only to return during a later youth lap swim, Takami said.

    Officials said he had made no attempt to present himself as a woman, nor to identify as transgender when he checked in. By all appearances, he was a man."https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/m...n-swimming-pool-locker-says-transgender-law-a

    But in your mind all those upset little girls and their mothers are nothing but "disgusting" and "hateful" is that it? Are those little girls growing up to be bigots Tiassa because they don't choose to see his limp dick and hanging sack? Really? I wouldn't expect anything different from you Tiassa. Sing on my friend. Stay frosty!

    Show me where there is such a thing as there being anything but male, female and intersex to biological sex? Show me where sex is not a reality. Find the scientific evidence to back up that claim. The diagram is by a progressive feminist not a conservative group so so much for YOUR stereotypes. Also, since y0u're all so big on 'self-identity' I don't self-identify as a conservative nor an supremacist and pointing out scientific biological reality doesn't make me one either. You can change the social construct Tiassa (men wearing skirts for example) but it doesn't change the reality that a man in a skirt is still a man in a skirt not a woman unless you believe its the skirt that makes someone female. How is a man with a scrotum and penis a female? Because he says so, because he identifies as such. Its nonsense. Transgender and intersex is not similar in any way shape or form. Intersex again is a biological reality. Transgender is an assertion of identity outside of biological reality. How is saying that cruel? I guess it was mean to point out that Dolezal wasn't in fact black but a white woman but that was just too bad wasn't it?

    sex
    (seks)
    1. a distinctive character of most animals and plants, based on the type of gametes produced by the gonads, ova(macrogametes) being typical of the female, and spermatozoa (microgametes) of the male, or the category in whichthe individual is placed on such basis. chromosomes (female XX, male XY), reproductive organs (ovaries, testes), hormones (oestrogen, testosterone)

    Is that a construct or biological reality? Ask Planned Parenthood

    It’s common for people to confuse sex, gender, and gender identity. But they’re actually all different things.

    • Sex is a label — male or female — that you’re assigned by a doctor at birth based on the genitals you’re born with and the chromosomes you have. It goes on your birth certificate.

    • Gender is much more complex: It’s a social and legal status, and set of expectations from society, about behaviors, characteristics, and thoughts. Each culture has standards about the way that people should behave based on their gender. This is also generally male or female. But instead of being about body parts, it’s more about how you’re expected to act, because of your sex.

    • Gender identity is how you feel inside and how you express your gender through clothing, behavior, and personal appearance. It’s a feeling that begins very early in life.



      There! So you see 'sex' cannot be a construct, its a reality, its not something biologists just made up to suit some ideological position. Gender is cultural and social and therefore malleable. Gender identity is a contemporary construct based on what someone is 'feeling' inside, it has no scientific validity, it has no biological reality. You find that cruel? Tough.

     
  9. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    9,879
    And how do we distinguish between those who would demand rights on pretense and those who are serious about their condition? The ones who are serious goes through the long process of taking HRT and going through surgery, no duck walk to be sure. My question to you is how are women supposed to navigate the following?

    SEATTLE, Washington, February 18, 2016 (LifeSiteNews) - A man twice entered the changing room of a swimming pool and began disrobing, once in front of a young girls' swim team, saying transgender policies gave him the right to do so.
    The unidentified man entered Evans pool in Seattle near Green Lake last Monday, February 8, and began taking off his shirt in front of female patrons.

    When asked what he was doing, he said, "The law has changed and I have a right to be here."

    "Seeing this individual in the locker room, parents of swim team members (girls) and women who had paid for lap swim became alarmed and alerted our front desk staff," said Seattle Parks spokesman David Takami in a statement. "In response, an Evans pool staff member entered the women's locker room and asked the man to leave." They offered both the man and the girls the opportunity to use a family changing room.

    He left, only to return during a later youth lap swim, Takami said.

    Officials said he had made no attempt to present himself as a woman, nor to identify as transgender when he checked in. By all appearances, he was a man.
    But appearances do not matter when it comes to "gender identity." LGBT theorists hold that biological sex is distinct from gender, which is determined solely by the person's mental self-identification.https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/m...n-swimming-pool-locker-says-transgender-law-a

    What do you do if you're a woman with young children who are learning to swim and find a naked biological male in the dressing area and showers? Because according to Tiassa they are hateful bigots and disgusting because they cannot see into this man's head and know that he is female just like them.
     
  10. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    9,879
    I don't know if you've noticed but Bells, Tiassa and Iceaura all deny that kind of information. Its just a construct you see, science can't speak of such things and it should be silenced and you're evil and wicked for pointing it out. HOW DARE YOU? Being a tomboy just means a girl likes to climb trees and play ball, it means she likes to wear pants and not dresses, this doesn't make her transgender, she may or may not grow up to be a lesbian. I grew up with a friend who was a fierce tomboy and she went on to be a married woman with children and for some strange reason she even likes to wear skirts from time to time.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2017
  11. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,879
    Its not a matter of wrong or right. Am I wrong to say I’m a pony? How can you prove I am not since its how I self-identify? Just because I ‘technically’ am not a quadruped shouldn’t disqualify me? Why should simple biological reality get in the way of my being a pony? You don’t know my struggles, how do you know that when I look in the mirror I don’t see a pony which is as poignant as a skinny anorexic seeing a fat girl every time she looks in the mirror.

    Soloway can describe herself any way she likes but if she ever gets fibroids the doctor will know she’s female even is she names herself Burt Bacharach. Biological sex is a reality. She is never going to come down with prostate cancer because she’s a woman!!! That’s a reality. She can call herself what she likes, come up with creative labels and it doesn’t change a damn thing.

    Being female is not an idea, being feminine is an idea. She is a female who is no longer feminine. So what? Doesn’t make her any less female. As far as how people will address her you can be sure she get’s ‘ma’am’ this and ‘Mrs.’ that all day long. If her children grew up calling her mom, I’m pretty sure she’s still mom. By the way one funny aspect of the whole 'non-binary' thing is that they can change their mind. They can feel male one day, female the next and then go back to being non-binary on the weekend. Its bullshit.

    I don’t give a shit about what anyone thinks of climate change its not what we’re discussing. Paglia is not a scientist and has never claimed to be one, what she has said is that understanding biology and how that affects us.

    Again what’s with the wheelchairs? If you cannot explain in detail what it has to do with this discussion then please stop bringing them up. No one is claiming that they shouldn’t have hand rails and ramps. Oh wait is it because you’ve been using their bathrooms? Tsk, tsk.

    You say “No US sociological race is a biological reality. Biologically, the US races makes no sense”.

    And does that mean that race makes no sense? Meaning that there are no black people, asians and white folk?

    I am not the one mistaking sociological features for biological ones. FEMALE=SEX, MALE=SEX. GENDER=MASCULINE EXPRESSION OR FEMININE EXPRESSION

    The biological reality (male or female) cannot change with drugs and surgery which is why men don’t suddenly get their period and get pregnant just because they go through reassignment surgery and HRT. A man looking and dressing like a woman is gender and that is mutable.

    So how is that mistaking a biological reality for a sociological one?

    Yeah the whole notion of non-binary is just gender babble. Its has no material reality behind it.

    I thought you believed race a sociological farce? But never mind. The experience of a black man compared to that of the white man is based on culture and social inequities is has nothing to do with the intrinsic whiteness or blackness. Being black can only be an experience within a social or cultural construct, like gender, but there is no black experience as such which is why black people worldwide are different and have a different experience of themselves in the world, even in the US. The only common denominator among blacks worldwide are the physical characteristics determined by race.
     
  12. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    No, we don't. We just think your arguments from it are garbage, from a long pedigree of garbage similarly based.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2017
  13. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Well it does not make her transgender, she just a girl, who got a lot of testosterone during a stage of fetal development and thus likes climbing trees, playing ball, wearing pants, and may or may not become and lesbian as an adult, what ever, I see nothing wrong with that, but she is still a she.

    What if it could, what then? What happens when ovaries and uterus can be grown and surgically installed in a man? Isn't a man that dresses as a women a transvestite?
     
  14. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    Oh that's classy. I thought this was the intelligent community. You can call my argument garbage but you haven't refuted it, nor have you even given me anything to consider. All I keep hearing is about how mean I am for stating biological facts and saying firmly that no trans women are not women. You haven't given me one scientific or biological argument that claims otherwise other than "that's how they feel".
     
  15. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    9,879
    Well that's what I've been saying and I have also been saying you cannot just pretend biology is not a factor in how we all turn out but that's seen as being purposely cruel. Transgenderism doesn't change biological reality, it just changes social constructs. What I disapprove of is the legislation.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2017
  16. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Ok if someone says they are a women... do you check their junk?

    Autogynophilia? Is that the instinctive desire to protect and cuddle women like children?
     
  17. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    You just said it was. I quoted you.
    Biology is a science. Paglia is completely unreliable about any scientific matter, as noted.
    You are. You stated explicitly that race was a biological reality, for example. You also base much of your argument here on sociological aspects of gender, which you mistake for biological attributes.
    No, I said it's a sociological reality, and a very serious one. I have said that many times. You don't read.
    It has a sociological reality behind it.
    There is no "intrinsic" whiteness or blackness. Those are sociological categories, and they vary by sociological circumstance.
    That's completely backwards. There are no 'blacks" worldwide. There are no physical characteristics "determined by race".

    And this basic confusion afflicts your arguments regarding sex and gender in Western - especially US, in this thread - society.
    .
     
  18. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,879
    No its not its how transgenderism was first classified. Did we have to check anyone's junk before? Or is it that after all this time transgender people never used public toilets? The whole reason why there is a toilet, female changing room debate is because its now been extended to men. You don't have to wear a dress, you don't have to be on hormones, you don't have to have had surgery, hell you don't even need to wear a bloody wig! All you have to do is say you are a transgender woman, its become a self-identified declaration.
     
  19. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    The response was to your completely false, quite stupid, probably dishonest, and certainly irrelevant, personal attack, which I quoted. You want classy, bring classy.

    Start by acknowledging - or at least reading correctly - other people's actual posts. You've been getting very simple things wrong, and it's a waste of time to have to correct you before addressing relevant matters.
     
  20. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    9,879
    No you asked if I thought if it were wrong for her to say that. I'm saying she can say whatever she likes but that's not going to change how she's seen and what people instinctively call her.

    Yes biological differences between races is reality though there is no such thing as a pure race. We are homo sapiens all but that doesn't mean there are no sex differences nor racial differences, what society makes of those differences is something else all together.

    Oh so you believe that XX and XY are sociological constructs? And women bearing children is also a construct? Is that what you're trying to say?

    No intrinsic blackness or whiteness? I'm inclined to agree with you but that doesn't mean there isn't anything as racial categories.

    Sure there is Iceaura, this is why we use the term European to describe any caucasian no matter where they are from and why we talk of blacks in relation to Africa. I'm sure you know that Africa has a lot of different tribes who are considered different people among themselves but they don't deny that those other tribes are black african because they are but again if you cannot convince me on the subject at hand then there's no point bringing up race.

    Now do you have an argument showing evidence that trans women are women?

    You obviously think they are so can you tell me on what basis are trans women women except for the fact that they say so?


    By the way I will not answer one more question about Paglia, race or wheelchairs. Stop trying to obfuscate the discussion.
     
  21. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    I am reading your posts and I have not once called you a name, hell I haven't even called your arguments a name. I guess its because you really haven't given me an argument to work with other than you dislike what I'm saying, you still haven't been able to show any objective evidence that trans women are women. So are they or aren't they? And if so in what way? What makes them equivalent to born females? Their hair and makeup? What exactly?
     
  22. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    There are no impure US races - sociologically they are distinct and unmixed (quite rigidly and violently segregated, at times), biologically they never existed in the first place (there's nothing to "mix").
    Why should I have to correct this kind of garbage from you? I'm not posting in Sanskrit. Read the damn posts.
    Nobody asked you any. You screwed that up by yourself.
    So when she says it makes a difference in how she's treated and "seen", you say she's wrong. And also that she's sending some kind of "message" you don't like.
    Who said you had? Deflection. Irrelevancy. Garbage.
    And so you affirm the basic accuracy of Jill's observation - it's all about the binary, just as she noted.
    Let's say they aren't, in some way. Then what?
    Which equivalencies matter?
    You have to read the posts more carefully to have much of a clue about the thinking - baby steps. Let's say trans women are trans women - go from there.
     
  23. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,879
    I'm going to ignore most of the drivel and get down to your serious questions. Jill Soloway says she was treated "more like a human being" when she cut her hair, wore men's clothing and called herself 'they, them or their'. In what universe does that make sense to you unless you agree that there is something wrong with being a feminine woman and so it should be subsumed and eschewed. What I said is why doesn't she question whether the new respect she's enjoying is due to her success with the creation of show Transparent? What makes her believe its all due to her dress code and insisting she's called 'they' and 'their'? Note Shonda Rhimes is black and a feminine female and she doesn't seem to be lacking in power to make or break anyone in the industry she wields so much power. How about Oprah? Did she have to throw off her feminine yoke to become a respected billionaire? No. So this thing with Soloway is just that, her 'thing'.

    Being a mixture of feminine and masculine just makes one a human being. If she's really binary then why does she insist on male clothing? And what does it mean for her to be 'trans'? Trans what? The whole non-binary or non-conformist stuff is just forced socially engineered nonsense which is why the majority of people are not running around using the lingo. It doesn't mean anything and it certainly isn't gender busting since she has chosen a masculine look over a feminine one.

    If they aren't, if trans women are not women then we have to be able to say this without being bullied into silence or called a bigot for saying it. If they aren't which they aren't then there is no need to have legislation regarding it. Trans women should have access to health care like everyone else, they should be able to find housing and work just like everyone else. A trans person doesn't get to dictate how I regard them as its not my job to validate their view of themselves so I reserve the right to call a man in a dress a man in a dress. So tell me. How is a little boy in a dress playing with dolls a girl? What is it that makes this boy a girl?

    What equivalencies matters? You tell me. You claim that biology doesn't count so what does then in your mind? So let's say trans women are not women and go from there. Why? Because they are not because they cannot be, its impossible! All they can achieve is the appearance of what is female with none of the attributes that actually make a female a female. You claim otherwise so the onus is on you to show evidence of how this is the case. Its as if you want to fight with me but you don't actually want to go so far as to challenge my argument with any valid opposing evidenced based argument. Desires are not facts, wanting to be a girl really really badly doesn't make one that, even with a costume.
     

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