Are you sure it isn't mathematics that's just a tiny subset of logic? Are you displaying a bias in this regard? Does it matter if logic is a subset of mathematics, or mathematics is a subject of logic? You clearly have no intention of trying to answer any of the questions, do you? You clearly have no intention of doing anything more than pursuing a single one, which is: is the velocity of a molecule a mathematical, or a logical function? Is its position a function of its physical velocity, and does that make it a physical function? (sorry, that's a second question) But you can't seem to decide what logical means. You can't or you don't want to answer this: About prediction; if a demon can predict when to open and close a small opening that a molecule can pass through, what does that say about how random the future (of the molecule or the demon) can be? Does it depend on what the demon knows about the molecule's position? Is the demon logical, physical, or mathematical? See if you can get some of your BS past me. And please, can we try to keep it to just a couple of paragraphs? The ideas are meant to be simple--what does "simple" mean? Hard to understand, like entropy is? But information entropy is a simple idea--roughly, it's the difference between numbers of symbols in a string of symbols. You don't need pages of formulas to explain this.
Is it logical that "certain mathematical facts are true for no reason"? What about "this sentence contains an unprovable statement", or "this statement is false"? Are these logical statements? About the logical function of a demon that knows when to open a trapdoor: if the demon can detect the velocity of a molecule, it can open and close the trapdoor and know which side of the barrier the molecule will stay in, otherwise it can only open and close the trapdoor "randomly" or not at all: leave it open or closed in which case a gas, even a gas of one molecule, will reach a state of equilibrium. The demon has to be able to measure the velocities of molecules, or the idea doesn't work logically. But this information is physical, and it's why a demon can't violate the second law of thermodynamics. Please note, tinfoil hats should be removed when considering this.
Good grief Addition, multiplication, aren't logical operators? What isn't logical about them? If you use digital logic gates as binary operators, how do you know you can add or multiply binary numbers? Isn't it logical that you can, because addition and multiplication are logical functions, which is "proven" in a context of Boolean logic? This is getting inane. Logic and mathematics are obviously connected, but from the context of symbolic logic, mathematics is a set of symbols that have a particular logical function; + and * in computer languages are well understood, and you can use them to generate "true" or 'false" predicates--you can do arithmetic on address values too, so it's all about which context you choose, as I said. In fact, that's what Alphanumeric is saying, but he doesn't seem to be aware that's what he's doing, switching context and replacing symbols with numbers.
Let's assume this principle is universal. In Maxwell's case, it's the minimum work the demon does opening or closing the trapdoor, or a barrier. This opening and closing is logically a step function, which has entropy; if the steps are random it's a random string of coin tosses, maximum complexity = a gas at equilibrium.
Not all mathematics can be written in logic. I'm making a distinction between 'logical' and the formal discipline of 'logic'. For instance, there are something which first order logic cannot describe. Likewise there are some things computers cannot model/describe. It has no relevance to your attempts to justify your assertions, no. How can I answer questions in a simple manner when you're unable to even define what you mean when you say things like 'physical function'. I've already given lengthy explanations of how your electronics example wasn't a good one and didn't support your assertion. The issue here isn't me, I've responded to what you said. The problem is you don't respond to what I've said, you just move onto another assertion. The problem is I'm familiar with multiple areas of logic, including the fact there's a subtle difference between common usage of the word and mathematical usage. Hence why I ask you to clarify yourself. The 'Maxwell's demon' example has nothing to do with your assertion. The demon's actions are a function of the position and velocity of the particles but that doesn't mean position is a function of velocity. The issue here is you're trying to get your BS past me. I'm sorry that I'm able to explain myself and you have a short attention span. That would go some way to explaining your inability the a discussion. You're changing the subject. Can you admit you have failed to justify your general assertion 'position is a function of velocity'? If you can then we'll move back to discussing entropy and bit strings. Until you can do that or demonstrate its true (which is impossible, I've given a counter example) I'm not going to let you do the creationist/crank tactic of changing the subject in order to face up to being corrected. I've previously asked you to tell me what would be required to change your mind. Education, experience, none of these things hold any weight with you. What would you accept as evidence you're wrong? Please state it and I'll provide it. You can't ignore my question then whine when I give a lengthy explanation as to your mistakes. If you'd answered my question I'd be able to tailor my response to you. 'Logical operators' are operators which act on logical statements, not 'operators which act in a logical way'. You don't know the terminology, just as you didn't with 'function', and you're trying to blame me. Yes, it is. You have been given a simple task, justify your general assertion that 'position is a function of velocity'. Rather than doing that simply and easily, you've gone into a slew of posts which don't justify that at all. Then you have the stupidity to complain I shouldn't need lots of text to justify my position! You have absolutely no grasp of what I'm saying or thinking or doing, that much is clear. As Alex says, this is now cesspool material. You've demonstrated throughout that you don't know anything on this material, entropy, information theory, functions. Each and every person who has joined the discussion has disagreed with you. Some of us have education in this stuff. Some of us have working experience with this stuff. You have no education and no experience. You demand people respond to you but you won't respond to us. You're a hypocritical, dishonest ignorant crank. From now on if you don't deal directly with the issue at hand, justifying your general assertion 'position is a function of velocity' I'll ignore it. It's a simple enough thing, if you're as right as you believe yourself to be.
Your problem isn't location. Rather, it's the presumption that you are able to discuss information theory at the formal level, given that you don't seem to have the prerequisites to do so. By all means ask whatever questions you want. But don't make yourself out to be something you're not.
Ok, thanks for all the help. And thanks for all the meaningful and thought-provoking replies you've made. I suppose what you mean is really: "don't bother asking any questions about information theory or algorithms, I don't understand it so all I can do is accuse you of the same thing, sorry". But thanks again, for supporting my growing convction that this forum is a joke. A laugh. Your post is actually funny, and you're a clown, right? Like Alph the fall guy?
Oh bullshit, the demon knows what the function is, how else could the position of melecules be determined? So you mean the demon acts, by using a function that doesn't exist? Or what? Your argumant is confusing. Can you admit that Maxwell's demon doean't give a rat's ass about whether my general assertion, and your objection, makes any difference to opening a trapdoor in a thought experiment? And you and anyone who thinks they know, has been asked questions, I thought they were simple questions. I guess they're beyond you, since you haven't bothered, except for singling out just one statement (not a question), because you have a compulsive need to correct people. That's really all you're telliing me and anyone who reads this. You don't want to answer them, you want to obsess over just ONE of my statements, because you're convinced I'm wrong. Ok, I may well be wrong (but I know why it doesn't matter; you don't appear to be able to look beyond your obsession), however), if there is no function, in that case I have to EXPLAIN how the demon manages to determine positions and velocities of molecules of gas. And YOU have to explain your statement "the demon's actions are a function of position and velocity" . . . what function do you mean? I think this function is easier if I assume the demon doesn't care about whether the function can be written on a piece of paper. But I don't want you, or anyone else to respond, I don't want you to tell me what you think entropy is, because I don't think you understand it. I don't care at all about your claims of experience or education, not AT ALL; you've said enough that I consider your opinions of what logic is to be more or less worthless. I'll stick to reading opinions of people who know what they're talking about, rather than people who spend a lot of time posting paragraphs of opinionated egostical rants. You come across as a bit too obsessed, pedantic and self congratulating, also compulsive, boring and the sort of person I would walk away from, if they started on me the way you do. This forum really is a good laugh though. Ask questions, what, are you nuts??
Fuck, what a joke this place is. You know, I've been telling young students to stay away from sites like this, it won't be good for their education, unless they're after learning a few good jokes. But, me, I miss the camaraderie of all the lost and lonely fuckwits who think they're educated. This compels me to disguise my tinfoil hat with a pair of underpants, then I can go outside without being noticed. It's really nice to come here and be reminded what a waste of time it is to come here. It restores some of my lagging faith in the human race--yes, really! But I hates it--I hates it!!--yesss.
As Alex says, .... Who cares what Alex says, don't you care about what you're saying? Oh wait, yeah, you do. actually that's all you care about, isn't it? that and being a cesspool guard?
You're welcome! It would have been quite silly for a computer scientist like me to write that I don't understand algorithms - I understand quite a lot about algorithms, if I can be a little immodest, here. As for information theory, I'll readily admit that I'm not an expert, since it is not my field of research. However, I should like to think that I understand the basics. So that's not really what I meant at all. No, I only meant what I wrote. The gist of it is that your impostures are quite transparent. Your inability to accept that you said some nonsense about position being a function of velocity only cements the image of 'burrowed feathers'. To give a more elaborate example: See, this statement implies authority that you cannot possess: "telling young students" something implies a teacher-student relationship at an institute of higher learning, and implies that you are in the position of authority. (Furthermore, there is a weaker implication that this is in a science context.) But it is frankly beyond credible to think that you have any such position, if you're confused about the definition of functions.
Ah, I see. So Maxwell was talking about "borrowed feathers", then? How does Maxwell's demon survive for more than 100 years, and how does the little bastard know where a molecule is, or when to open a trapdoor? You have heard of this demon, I suppose? How is it done, magic? You don't know, do you? You can't explain it because of the nonsense about position and velocity--there is no function and no demon. So 100 years was just because of all the stupid people? If I want to tell young people to stay away from forums like this, and from poeple wearing underpants over their tinfoil hats, I will. You telling me I'm implying authority inplies that you have the authority to tell me, and you don't by your own stupid argument. Your post, and all the others you've made simply demonstrate that you think this: you have authority. That you ignore questions and instead rabbit away and say nothing interesting, or even relevant, tells me you have no authority. Me, I don't want any, I don't need any, and yes, I hates it!!
You don't need to know velocity to compute position. Don't you know how radar works? You made a general statement. I've provided a counter example to the mathematical definition of 'function'. All other definitions you've put forth have either failed to justify your claim or have actually supported mine. Yes, I'm sticking to this one issue because its a common crank tactic to throw out 50 mistakes in the hopes of none of them getting pinned down. If you can admit you're mistaken we can move on. I used it in the mathematical sense. The demon's actions depend on the velocity and position he measures. The action can be a function of position and velocity, that doesn't mean that position is a function of velocity. If it were then the demon wouldn't need to measure position, only velocity. Clearly knowing only the velocity is insufficient for the demon to determine his action. Whether or not the function can be explicitly written down is irrelevant. There are plenty of functions in mathematics which cannot be explicitly written down, they are defined by their properties. And what are you basing your assessments of my ability on? Why are you a good judge of ability/understanding on this stuff? And what are you basing your assessments of my ability on? Why are you a good judge of ability/understanding on this stuff? And why do you accept the opinions of those people? How is it you determine whether or not someone knows what they are talking about? What are your criteria? I care whether or not someone is correct when it comes to science and mathematics. If you'd just admitted to your mistake several pages ago we could have moved on. You're the guy who describes himself as 'in a world of idiots', so I hardly think you're in a position to call anyone else 'self congratulating' as an attempted insult. And you're the sort of person who couldn't even get on the courses I've taught. I'm happy to put it to a vote as to which of us the forum views to be full of shit. So leave. How many 'young students' do you interact with? Besides, I'm happy to have what I've said compared to the stuff 'young students' would be taught in their educational intuitions. You'll find what I've been saying squares up with lecture notes, textbooks and papers. How do I know this? I've read such things and I've even contributed to some. I don't 'think I'm educated', I know it. If 'educated' is having passed through the higher education system then I'm educated. If 'educated' is having engaged in research in higher education and had it published then I'm educated. If 'educated' is having applicable knowledge which I've applied to the real world then I'm educated. Are you? What's your definition of 'educated'? Do you met that definition? By any rational measurement of 'educated' I'm certain I'm more educated than you and I'm happy to justify that. So why don't you leave? If this place is a 'sea of idiots' and everyone is uneducated except for you then why are you here? Why waste your time? There's plenty of other forums people who correct you, plenty other forums filled with ignorant deluded cranks like yourself. Feel free to fuck off, just don't let the door hit you on the way out.
This ignorant deluded crank wants to know how Maxwell's demon works, how does the demon determine that a molecule is moving faster than other molecules, so it can open a trapdoor? The demon can't use the velocity to determine when to open the trapdoor? How does the demon know when a molecule is even moving towards the trapdoor so it can be opened? The rest of your post is bumpf. If you can't handle being told you're obsessive and pedantic, see if you can handle not being obsessive and pedantic. Why don't you leave, if it upsets you so much you're compelled to respond? Why can't you just ignore it instead of posting paragraphs? I ignore most of what you say, why can't you ignore me? Wait, you are ignoring me, and focussing on what you think is a mistake I made. But Maxwell's demon does not make mistakes--it sorts molecules according to their velocities. . That's exactly what I said. There is a function--actually the action of this demon--which is based on the velocities and positions of molecules, which the demon is able to determine. In that case, the positions must be a continuous function of the velocities, any alternative doesn't make sense. How can I accept anything you say about functions and logic, when you can't seem to decide if water flowing is a physical function? Mathematics is logical, and the logic can describe physical reality, right? These descriptions are of corresponding physical processes, which are functions, water flowing is a process, a physical function, it is also mathematical and logical, you don't need a formula to determine logically that water is physical and so is the flow of water; this is not because of mathematics.
It's a thought experiment, and one of its assumptions is that the demon can somehow know the position and velocity of the molecules. That's a fairly strange piece of reasoning. Good luck with those.
Ok, now you're just trolling. 'Position', 'velocity', 'continuous', and 'function' are technical terms. They're not particularly advanced ideas, and you're simply using them wrong. Position can't be a function of velocity (continuous or otherwise), because position can change with time, even if velocity doesn't. If position were a function of velocity, by definition you should be able to give me the exact position if I give you just a velocity, and you can't. We can try it, if you like.
Where did I say the demon doesn't use velocity? I specifically said he uses both position and velocity. I have absolutely no qualms about being called pedantic and obsessive about science, giving a shit about scientific accuracy is one of the main things in my life. You're the one who said this forum is a sea of idiots and students should avoid it. Why are you here then? I come here to discuss science and quite often that involves correcting people I know to be incorrect because I feel it is important incorrect information isn't spread. Incorrect. The action of the demon is a function of both velocity and position. This does not then imply position is a function of velocity. You're making a mistake similar to the logically fallacy that A=>B and A=>C means B=>C or vice versa. It does not. I've already given a counter example. You must not have understood it. Because I have almost a decade of experience in this stuff, that its literally my day job? Because all books and lecture notes and papers agree with me? I've already responded to this. You're either too stupid to understand or just trolling. Either way this discussion is going nowhere. funkstar, I've already been through exactly that example with him. He just doesn't get it.
I know it's a thought experiment, which is why I said it was a while back, so you're repeating stuff. I'll ask again, How does the demon know when a molecule is even moving towards the trapdoor so it can be opened? And, is the function the demon "uses" to determine the motion of molecules logical, mathematical, or physical? (It's a "thought" function, perhaps) If you can't answer the first question, than discussion is a waste of time. I've abandoned all hope of any of the OTHER questions being addressd here. Not that I would learn anything, I'm too stupid.
