to vacinate or not to vacinate

Discussion in 'Health & Fitness' started by Asguard, Apr 26, 2009.


manditory vacination?

  1. yes

  2. no

  3. other

  4. dont care

  1. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

    Just post. There is no selection committee. We will soon learn if your posts are worth reading.
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  3. Skeptical Registered Senior Member

    For those who want to learn more about the MMR vaccine/autism story, here is a reference which presents it in cartoon form. Takes only a minute to read. And this is the same story I read in New Scientist, so it is the proper scientific viewpoint. Not the nutters view.
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  5. matthew809 Registered Senior Member

    I think vaccination is a great idea, but I wouldn't trust it in the wrong hands. So unfortunately, right now, vaccinations are a terrible idea.
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  7. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

    Certainly vaccines are a net plus, but there may be minor problems (from a populations' POV) mixed in:

    "... Finnish researchers have found an increased risk of narcolepsy among 4 to 19-year-olds who were given swine flu shots, a government health agency said Tuesday. A preliminary study by the National Narcolepsy Task Force indicates that children vaccinated with Pandemrix "contributed to the observed increase in incidence of narcolepsy" compared to those who were not vaccinated in the same age group, it said.

    The agency said, however, that the increase likely was caused "by joint effect of the vaccine and some other factor," and added that it would have to conduct more research as similar increases in narcolepsy cases have not been reported in other countries using the vaccine. ..."
  8. spidergoat Venued Serial Membership Valued Senior Member

    You are a dangerous fool.
  9. Skeptical Registered Senior Member

    All anti-vaccination advocates are dangerous fools.

    Vaccination has saved the lives of billions of people. It is the reason smallpox no longer exists. It is the reason polio is now affecting very few people and likely to go extinct soon.

    Side effects of vaccination are normally minor, and treatable, and rare. There are side effects that are valuable. For example : epidemiologists have found that those people who originally received the smallpox vaccine have a significantly lower risk of melanoma. That alone is almost enough reason to get that vaccine.
  10. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    Nonetheless we are over-vaccinated. What's the point in protecting people against last year's strain of influenza virus? You'd have to be the unluckiest person on your continent (or have the most weakened immune system) to get it this year.

    Why are we vaccinating children against illnesses that are merely annoying instead of life-threatening?

    A consensus is dawning that many of the bizarre ailments that people have today are simply malfunctions of their immune system. How could anyone have survived long enough to propagate their genes, in the Middle Ages in Europe, if they were allergic to wheat? Fibromyalgia is apparently an allergic reaction to one's own tissue. They're even leaning toward that verdict on lupus. Peanut butter was a staple food for my generation--cheap and full of protein. Now so many children are allergic to peanuts that normal children aren't allowed to bring peanut butter sandwiches to school!

    It's been argued that the reason that each generation of Americans has a more dysfunctional immune system than the last is that when they're young, they're not exposed to enough pathogens to calibrate their immune system. So when one of these pampered bodies finally senses the presence of slightly exotic pollen or other harmless cells, it says, "At last! Something unusual for me to build antibodies for!"

    Couple this with the over-washing, over-disinfecting habits of their parents, and these kids' immune systems haven't had the opportunity to practice by building antibodies to even the resident bacteria in their home.
    One of our dogs almost died after getting a shot of leptospirosis vaccine--which we subsequently learned isn't even very effective.

    These are only the first-order side effects. The second-order effects can be dire, if the above hypothesis turns out to be correct.
  11. Skeptical Registered Senior Member


    As I understand it, there is a strong likelihood that autoimmune diseases are due to too little exposure to infection - not too much. If this is true, then vaccines should reduce such ills. There are as many side benefits as nasty side effects. I know, for example, that the incidence of melanoma is significantly less among those who have had the smallpox vaccine.

    Whether to immunise against non lethal ills is, of course, a personal decision. I tend not to get the flu shot each year, though I might in a few years when my body is more frail. However, there are a heap of ills that can kill, ranging from measles, to meningococcal, to whooping cough etc. If a vaccine is available and we do not use it, that is irresponsible.
  12. Hercules Rockefeller Beatings will continue until morale improves. Moderator

    Who says? That is not an opinion shared by the majority in the medical and scientific communities.
  13. EmptyForceOfChi Banned Banned

    Check for Mercury in all medications, if it has any in it then I think a doctor deserves a jab in his arm to test it first.

  14. wellwisher Banned Banned

    One of the problems I see is that medical need is often based on averages, and not on the exact needs of the individual. The reality is not everyone needs the vaccine. I have never taken a flu vaccine, since I don't get sick that way. However, I realize that some people will benefit by it.

    In the ideal world, we would differentiate the two groups and not just use a one size fits all approach. The one size fits all approach is designed for lazy science and the medial business bean counter, but not the reality of individual medical needs. If 10% have a heart problem that medicine A can help, should we give the same medication to everyone? We would not do that since problems will arise.

    Say you don't need any vaccine, since your immune system is up for the task. However, we force you to get the vaccine. Now your immune system has a forced prosthesis, which no longer requires it work as well, since the vaccine crutch will help it out. Over time, one might become dependent. This is good for medical business.
  15. Skeptical Registered Senior Member


    It is the other way round. The vaccine strengthens the immune system, since it stimulates it into action. It is like the effect of pumping iron on biceps. Work 'em more and they get stronger.
  16. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

    Incorrect by vacinating you don't just help your own immune system (as has already been pointed out) you also protect other people who can't be vacinated because either they are alergic, to young, immunocompromised ect. Its selfish and lazy not to vacinate yourself and your children if you can.
  17. EmptyForceOfChi Banned Banned

    Inject yourselves with strange Products of Alchemy at your own Risk, If you are wise you will let your Immune system be exposed to whatever is out there and let it build up a natural defence. Supported By a healthy diet and regular training ofcourse, If you catch anything life threaterning that you can't fight off and you seem to be getting really Ill then under a Last resort only should you use Alchemy and your machines to intervene.

    What is ultimately fate you will not change with injecting yourself with Harmful elements.

    Peace and Understanding of nature be with you.
  18. Stoniphi obscurely fossiliferous Valued Senior Member

    Fascinating spin there, Empty. Also very imaginative.

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    Many thousands of folks in the US die from the flu every year, so a flu shot is a good idea if you are frail or are around frail people or have a weakness or just don't want to be seriously ill for a month or 2.

    I never got the flu shot until after I had sinus surgery. The I got every disease that came by, which was quite a few as my son was in elementary school at the time. I began to lose my sense of smell and the ENT surgeon was really concerned, so son and I began getting the shot every year. We quit getting sick so often. The wife skipped on that, so when the flu came around one year, she got very sick for a month and a half while son and I missed out on it completely. After that the wife got the flu shot too.

    Then we began to go visit old ma in the nursing home. We never went when we were ill, but somebody did. When the flu went through there, the residents who hadn't got the shot often got so sick they just died. We saw that.

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    Manufacturers haven't put that mercury in immunizations for a decade or so now, and the doc who claimed that it caused autism is featured in Skeptical's link. You should have a look at the story, because he lied about that for money and has been completely discredited.

    I have know people who had polio, I remember the children in rows of iron lungs, and I remember that polio often just killed you dead when you got it. I would rather have the shot than the disease, but you should go ahead and do what you think is right.

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  19. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

    If it was just the person then it wouldn't be an issue, even if they were killing there own children it could be argued that it was there own problem but its not. You get mildly sick and the babies, immune compromised and the elderly pay the price
  20. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

    I am not an expert about vaccines but certainly know they have nothing to do with "alchemy." AFAIK vaccines are of two types:

    (1) living, but mild ability to make you sick, organisms, that give your immune system a chance to swing into action and develop the anti-bodies that will cure the mild illness you may not even notice AND be ready and waiting for many years, (or even all your life) to "stomp on" the stronger or even deadly, variants of the organism that you may contract later.

    I think the Salk vaccine is of this mild type and in much of the world has eliminated polio. Vaccines were discovered by the observation that milkmaids never got small pox. That was because they had contracted "cow pox" which in humans is very mild, but "PRIMED” the immune system to quickly eradicate small-pox germs that many got, with at least facial scaring or often death. I.e. vaccination naturally occurs for many back in that era when most lived on a farm.

    (2) Pieces of the "skin" of the deadly germ, (proteins) which of course can't make you sick. Conceptually some might over react to them with an allergic reaction, but the mass used is so small that even if allergic to that protein you probably will not notice the reaction. Fortunately, your immune system will. - It knows that protein is "not you" but an invader, so again quickly goes into action to make anti-bodies that can attack it. (Or the skin of a pathogen of a deafly germ than uses that protein to make its "skin.")

    Alchemy never made a living organism nor any proteins so your post, if not just allegorical, only reflects your ignorance (either about Alchemy or vaccines or both). Polio, has not been completely eliminated from the Earth, so if you can spread the ignorance of your post around well, the makers of iron lungs will thank you.

    I think Small Pox only exists it two carefully control biological labs - one in Russia and one in the US.* A few years ago a third (in England as I recall) decided to kill their store as the benefits of studying it were not worth the risk that it might escape. I for one would like to see the DNA (or RNA if that is all it has) mapped and then have Small Pox no longer exist even in controlled labs. Vaccines made control of Polio and Small Pox possible. (and dozens of other diseases I am to ignorant to know the details about.)

    *Both keep it for it germ warfare potential - slight variations can convert it into a very deadly and relatively quick aerosol killer.
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 10, 2011
  21. Skeptical Registered Senior Member

    Ignorance of the variety demonstrated by 'empty force' is extremely harmful.

    Polio almost got eliminated a decade or two back. It was limited to some hills tribes in the back of beyond in Nigeria. The world was poised to eliminate it once and for all with a big vaccination program, and some moronic Muslim idiots stepped in. These people went around telling the tribespeople that the vaccine was an American device to make the Muslims sterile. End result was a resurgence in polio which is now endemic in a number of nations. A golden opportunity lost due to totally stupidity!

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