To KMGURU and Raj

Discussion in 'Eastern Philosophy' started by Rick, Oct 30, 2004.

  1. Rick Valued Senior Member


    I am just reading about Brahman(the ultimate reality),could you explain the idea behind the Ultimate reality,i have some difficulty in grasping the concept of it,as Shankracharya says :
    Awaiting your replies.

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  3. kmguru Staff Member

    Shankara argues that ignorance (avidya) consists in not knowing the difference between the empirical world and ultimate reality.

    Shankara never said that it is not necessary to know the empirical world to know the ultimate reality. What he seems to say that the ultimate reality is a lot deeper and complex than the empirical world which seems logical.

    Consider your own dreams for a moment. Definitely there is a difference between your dream and the outside reality (the empirical world). At the same time, consider what to you perceive the outside world to be verses a deaf and blind person. While the outside world has its own truth, the mental model of both persons are different.

    Then question comes whether a human can know the ultimate reality constrained by the sensory perceptions? The Rig Veda wrestled with that without any answer. Gita does provide answers in a convoluted way. That is the answer is the wise person knows the answer - but what is it? Gita does provide paths to seek the answer ...the yoga...

    But I think, without the proper understanding of even the empirical world, the ultimate reality will remain elusive. Imagine a person growing up isolated in an island with no knowledge of the world....

    While it is romantic to think that by meditating, even a monkey can learn the ultimate reality...that is not so. Reality bites. Sorry to bust your ballon...but the closer we get, the more we know and so life will continue for the next million years towards the ultimate reality....take some lunch with you.

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    Remember Babylon a million years, we become Vorlons....Even they do not know everything....
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  5. Rajagopals Registered Senior Member

    Ultimate reality has a two fold approach – while when you are alive or after death

    Both are two different processes, but after death is easy (hope so) but while alive is very very difficult (I am sure about this)

    Explaining a very complex question in few paragraph(s) is a tough challenge but since I like problems, here comes the fun from my mind.

    Ultimate Reality After Death – (URAD) is easy. Practice pranayama, and follow the rules of the practice and at the time of death – do something as said in the books – boom there goes your soul to the source of all the knowledge of the God and universe ! And we call that Samadhi. Samadhi is the state of a dead body showing many symptoms as if not dead completely, for eg. blood will circulate in the body, warmth will be there for some time and many such other symptoms that could be used to identify a Samadhi. And even today there are many people who take Samadhi after declaring their death few weeks ahead, clearing doubts of disciples before that and when the time arrive just do a Samadhi.

    If with your’ will power you can control your feelings to stop smoking then the same can also be used to stop many thing and with a bit of tough practice Samadhi could also be one were you instruct your mind to stay awake while you are dead (physical) !! Sounds funny to me also but the truth is, have you thought about that possibility? It’s like instructing your body, I will keep my soul on rest and let the body and the stuff(s) that needs to keep the materialistic body persist. If the will power is very strong then this could work out. And ‘if there is a will there is a way’. I could be a sign board to ‘that will’ and ‘way’ for interested souls

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    By now some intelligent people who don’t read much will get upset because we are not getting in to the subject, to satisfy those minds, we need more time to explain the logic behind this. Since I ‘do computer’ for a living, I can compare this with some sort of an encryption mechanism. As if like, you lock your mind / soul (with a key) and then pass the key to the body and tell body to be there till your soul/mind wake up. And since there is no cheating (hackers) in nature, body will wait till the soul wakes up !! Yup ! Thus Hamsa explained UKAD !

    I would say only one guy has done this properly, that ‘could be’ Lord Shiva as he is in Maya Nidra (Magical Sleep) of Samadhi and his body still awaiting his soul to wake up ! But if your will power is not that strong as Lord Shiva then you will turn out to be some mummy we see in Discovery Channel or ‘The Mummy’ movie !! And I don’t like those ugly saints as they scare me, and give me a reason for not doing Samadhi. How many times have we seen a Samadhi really ‘alive’ as if like a dead body after few minutes of death ! Not even a single one, and that’s the reason I said there is only one fuker who has done this properly and that ‘is’ Lord Shiva. Don’t ask me were his fuckin body is !!

    Ultimate Reality While Alive (URWA) – is very difficult as you need to break the complex ‘normal’ working patterns of your body & mind and for that there are different methods. First it is the mind that you need to control, then body – use meditation (pranayama) and kriya yoga (respectively) for these purposes. Cleanse your mind off the thoughts (both good and bad) and keep the body fit (loose maximum water content from body).

    And this is the part what Zion asked. First lets crack Sankara, forgive me my Guru as I insult a “dead” soul, Sankara is fake ! He said Lord Shiva came in his dream and touched his forehead and said ‘this is were the secret resides’. For a person who see himself along with Lord Shiva what is Advaitha – a ‘not two’ approach ? Sankara – 1, Lord Shiva – 2, then dream, so what the fuck is Advaitha ? To start the theory of Advaita, Sankara uses dvaita (two concept). If a person can envision Shiva outside his body and mind then what is Advaitha ? Fuckoos !! Advaitha is good, but telling a lie is not good. He either lied about Lord Shiva coming in dream and if so then Shiva never touched his forehead nor did Lord Shiva told that is were the secret is, or Shiva came in his dream but then fuckin he can’t talk about Advaita as what he says goes against what he was trying to preach ! And a person who tells lies has not even got vani sudhi (clarity or truth in the word) then how can he talk about Advaitha and specifically Lord Shiva. Yah Allah, inpe raham karo !

    We are done with Sankara, but the confusion he created in the minds of many remains like “knowledge of the empirical world has the same relation to knowledge of Brahman as the phantoms of a dream have to the apprehension of reality when the sleeper wakes up (II,1,14). Shankara argues that ignorance (avidya) consists in not knowing the difference between the empirical world and ultimate reality.”

    I have no clue what the hell did he meant by this ! But the truth is simple, like my advancing bald head

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    . It is easy to juggle with words and talk for hours in theory but if some one ask this kind of basic simple question then the theory breaks and so does the fun ! Lets go back to practicality and try to crack URWA. Those smart people who don’t want to kick their own asses by taking a Samadhi and becoming a Discovery channel mummy, what they do is try for two stages ahead of Samadhi. Thuriam (super-consciousness), and second Thuriatheetham (absolute). read the 9th point under3rd point. He just touches the topic. (If the URL goes offline I am going to take a copy and keep it with me, if you lost it then ask me I will send the file!). And they are, like some ghost movie, having the ultimate magical powers, all the 8 (read ‘Eight major Siddhis’ at ) Nothing but freedom to do as you please (Swechenda)!

    Second practice (Thuriatheetham) is to develop will power not to practice Siddhis when you have that!!! Ha Ha Ha …that’s the most difficult thing than stopping masturbation !!! anima laghima&hl=en read and get confused “only a confused mind searches for answers” – did any one said that early or can I claim this as a quote of mine !!!?

    Back to URWA, this Thuriatheetham is the stage that you (Zion) are referring as Ultimate Reality. But if this quest is for all the super yogic powers then this route will take you life (Death shall follow like a swift wind!) Get a guru and dedicate life to the truth, sure you can achieve the ultimate reality.

    But still if you feel the question unanswered then I need to do ‘tharkam’ (debate) on Sankara’s – ““knowledge of the empirical world has the same relation to knowledge of Brahman as the phantoms of a dream have to the apprehension of reality when the sleeper wakes up (II,1,14). Shankara argues that ignorance (avidya) consists in not knowing the difference between the empirical world and ultimate reality.” – I continue, this time with more in to theory.

    This quote purely means ‘body is everything, try to understand that’. It is correct in its own sense but that may not be the end, as there is more to it. It is true as the logic of ‘be alive’ (the Atman) runs on ‘pleasure principle’ that all living beings follow (I am limiting the discussion to living being as of now). Our body does only things that make our body/mind/soul/crotch happy. And if we are to understand the Atman through that then enjoy all the bodily affairs to the best and try to reach that inner self that comes with a logic of ‘be alive’ to enjoy – this practice is known as ‘Kaula Margam’ ( More towards sex, gurls, fucking young chicks in the name of the God, again flesh in all forms - I mean eat, drink, chew, and if possible make ash and puff the body like talcum powder !! They sure will understand the word ‘Ananda’ very easily but ‘Ultimate Reality’ is only few million light years away. But since the logic behind this practice was defined by some drunken monk while he was doing sex, still people believe this and the story goes on. (I am getting horny by the mere thought of the Kaula

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    If knowledge of the body will let us know everything then surely, this body is the entire universe but the truth is, if I keep on typing this ‘my manager universe’ will come in a body shape and kick my ass a bit hard – I mean to say, then what are these bodies? If another body exists then which universe is that? If not universe then what, how do I know about that? With out the knowledge of other bodies then how the hell will I have ultimate reality? And that’s the reasons why I said, there is more. I am sure you had enough reading for the day.

    I am done, and feeling hungry, horny, sad, confused, in a deep thought, I think my Kundaleeni is calling me.

    Thus “tried” Hamsa on URWA

    Zion if you are still hungry, I can give ‘food for thought’ till you are quenched.
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  7. everneo Re-searcher Registered Senior Member

    It seems more than enough for the guy who asked for it.

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    “knowledge of the empirical world has the same relation to knowledge of Brahman as the phantoms of a dream have to the apprehension of reality when the sleeper wakes up (II,1,14). Shankara argues that ignorance (avidya) consists in not knowing the difference between the empirical world and ultimate reality.”

    This quote purely means ‘body is everything, try to understand that’

    Its the other way around. When dreaming everything seems to be natural and familiar and no questions asked. After waking up we realize all the oddities and silliness in the dream. Similarly when the ultimate reality is realized all the actions/rules in the empirical world would look silly. This what Sankara means by calling the empirical world is an illusion caused by avidya.
  8. kmguru Staff Member

  9. Rick Valued Senior Member

    Thanks for the Link KM and thanks for your input Raj,i was reading Mandukya Upnishads, by Prof. S. Radhakrishnan (Former President of India).I seem to be getting hang of it i think. Here's the idea.

    Upnishads simply say : that this world is plain myth and that Brahman is absolute reality.The world,Gods(yes even gods),OM(yes AUM) are all manifestations of brahman,the absolute reality.

    It is like this :if you have a bracelet of a gold and you decide to melt it to convert it into another form like a gold coin,you can do it,But what is the absolute reality? That it is nothing but GOLD,everything is just manifestation of the GOLD itself.

    Upnishads further explain :

    Brahman---appears to be manifested to----OM-----appears to be manifested to----Gods----appears to be manifested to---Humans.

    The reason i say appears to be is because it doesnt actually manifest,it is our senses which manifests this world according to our needs.
    Now,this is interesting...perhaps that is the reason why Gods can shape shift?...just a thought...

  10. kmguru Staff Member

    That it is nothing but GOLD,everything is just manifestation of the GOLD itself.

    The absolute reality is not even GOLD - even though that is what you percieve to be, just as the jewelry...

    One needs to go deeper than that to the matter and energy level and beyond where base particles are in flux and perhaps beyond to the quantum level...

    That is where the reality begins...but hard to perceive...

    Once you understand the quantum level, the reality unfolds itself. It takes years of practice just to get a glimpse of what is beyond our perception as the mind learns to create that model from other than the 5 senses....
  11. Rick Valued Senior Member


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    Km,that was an analogy for understanding the ultimate reality...
    O.K. Monk of Baton Rouge, lets explore it a little more.Mandukya Upnishads mention the idea to simplify even more:
    It is not related to quantum level,rather this whole world,including quantum level particles (belonging to this universe off course or other universes for that matter) are simply there as Maya,they are just an illusion to the reality,that is: Knowledge of this or any other universe perceivable is simply No-knowledge,rather it is like knowledge of dreams,whereas one should know more about reality.
    The true-knowledge is knowledge of Brahman,which can only be understood by Gods,as they realize that this world is simply Brahman and rest whatever one sees is a myth, they can shape-shift(because,you know that ultimately it is brahman,so anything you do to alter your own existence,the reality or absolute truth is Brahman,so you could alter yourself).

    if you believe in soul then you will further find the confusion removed here,that soul is nothing,rather soul is Brahman,and therefore it has always existed there, it is your true nature.Souls,in what we consider(like image of ourselves) is gibberish;this is because Souls as what we see are just mental image of our real selves in the real world.But the truth is that souls that we understand are not souls, they are simply based on our knowledge of this world,but the truth is that we are all constituents of Brahman,it is what we are made up of or manifestation of; by itself it is not manifested,it is our limitation that we see it as manifested due to senses limitations.

    ---I hope i am able to expound the principle-----
  12. UltiTruth In pursuit... Registered Senior Member

    fuck, shit, masturbation, horny ???
    and strange blurting against Sankara!


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  13. Rajagopals Registered Senior Member

    A Hans in Hindi, ('Hamsam' in Sanskri, a Swan in English) is a bird which can drink milk (no water) from milk and leave the rest behind.

    I welcome you to become a Hans, if you don't want I can take away the 'whole' milk.

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    And are you aware of the latest news from India, the current 'Sankaracharya' is arrested for murder !!! He is behind bars !!!

    Ha, Kashtam (So sad)

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  14. UltiTruth In pursuit... Registered Senior Member

    Hmm... I really wonder if you have assimilated the advaitha bit deep! You think you are supreme!!!

    And what does the arrest prove?

    P.S.: And why don't you give us pure whole milk than dilute it for all to be 'Hans' here?
  15. airavata portentous Registered Senior Member

    He's just some guy who ascended to the post of Kanchi Sankaracharya. How does that have anything to do with Adi Sankara?
  16. VitalOne Banned Banned

    Krishna describes the Impersonal Brahman as "the unmanifested, that which lies beyond the perception of the senses, the all-pervading, inconceivable, fixed and immovable--the impersonal conception of the Absolute Truth"

    Seems easier to me to think of the Brahman as consciousness rather than an "ultimate reality", I mean atman = brahman, right?
  17. Rick Valued Senior Member

    Atman is Brahman and not soul like you see in movies such as Ghost,since that what you see in movies is just your mental projection of your own self in this world which is just non-knowledge and just hiding from the absolute truth,that is Brahman.

    Our true nature is brahman,our souls are manifested from it...are you getting my point?...

  18. Rajagopals Registered Senior Member

    Advaitha means thinking united with the universe and the God. If a person thinks he is one with the universe and the God, then he is literally practicing Advaitha.

    And your statement itself answers your concern that whether I have assimiliated the Advaitha a bit deep? And if the ‘You think you are supreme’ is a question then the answer is YES ! And want to remind you that there is a reason behind everything in this universe, so does my thought !!

    I may not be able to get you milk but I can at least tell you were you can get ‘pure’ milk !

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