To Better Understand The Theist

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by geeser, Nov 22, 2006.

  1. geeser Atheism:is non-prophet making Valued Senior Member

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    1,305
    to better understand the theist

    As this is a science forum, I would greatly like to understand the theist mindset, would any of you theist's, mind answering a few questions, purely for debating purpose's.
    thank you.


    what Denomination are you?(ie christian catholic, or christian protestant or muslim sunni, or muslim shia, etc....)

    can you define your god/god's?

    is he/she/them Omnimax?(meaning omniscient,omnipotent,omnipresent.)(Define this. Is it reality?)

    is there a standard of Morality?(Does one exist? Does your god dictate it, is he obliged to stick to it?)

    is there such a thing as Free will?(Define it? Does it exist? How could it exist with predetermination?)

    do you believe that all other gods are false?(if yes, explain why?)

    do you have an holy book/books?(was it inspired by your god/gods? do you believe it to be infallable? and why? do you adhere to it verbatum?)

    do you believe in evolution?(if yes do you think it makes god redundant?)

    what do you think of Atheism/humanism/agnosticism/


    lets discuss please.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2006
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  3. Adstar Valued Senior Member

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    I am a Christian.


    Not logically. The Mystery of God is revealed in John Chapter 1.


    What is Omnimax?


    Yes the standard set by God.


    Yes, we are free to choose.


    Well false in the fact that they are not Gods. certain entities may exist but they are not Gods maybe demons and spirits but not Gods.


    Yes the Bible. Because my mind agrees with it. I know i should adhere to it but i am a faulty human and fail to do this.


    Evolution probably is happening but while things can adapt to changes in their environment they cannot cause themselves to come into existence. Therefore a Creator needs to initiate existence.


    They are all attempts by people to find their own guiding philosophy. Peoples attempt to be their own God.


    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
     
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  5. geeser Atheism:is non-prophet making Valued Senior Member

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    thank you, but a christian what? catholic, mormon, etc....
    not logically is understood, but telling me it's revealed in john does not help, not interested in what john thinks just you.
    see opening post.
    yes your god set you morals, but does it follow it's own rules.
    but How does it exist with predetermination?
    so it's your belief that everybody else worships demons?
    ok.
    why?
    so you dont consider yourself human, or have human values, or even respect humanity?
    humanism is any system or mode of thought or action in which human interests, values, and dignity predominate, a devotion to or study of humanities, surely your humanity should come first, it does'nt mean your trying to be a god, just human.
     
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  7. Shaitan lord of hades Registered Senior Member

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    the best of luck in trying to get, straight answers, Geeser.
     
  8. Light Travelling It's a girl O lord in a flatbed Ford Registered Senior Member

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    As 70 - 80% of the people on this forum are atheist (shown by various polls), this would seem a strange place to try and gather such information.

    If you really are intersted, why not post the same questionaire somewhere like belief.net

    http://www.beliefnet.com/

    or various other similar sites.
     
  9. Light Travelling It's a girl O lord in a flatbed Ford Registered Senior Member

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    I will however reply to your questionaire, I assume you will do me the courtesy of doing the same with mine

    No denomination, not member of any religion.

    Everything. The mundane and transcendant. The phenomonal and spiritual.

    Certainly not anthropomorphic, or personal in any way.

    In the true nature of reality these exist, but not as our relative existence understands.

    Yes, love and respect all life.

    In absolute terms there isn't in relative terms there is.

    Other gods - Only as representaions of the one.

    I have many books - none are infallible as all have passed through human hands.

    The most important to me the hindu scriptures and a few buddhist sutras.

    Yes I believe in evolution. I see no contradiction


    Atheism is fine so long as allows freedom of religion and expression to all others (which they must reciprocate)
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2006
  10. geeser Atheism:is non-prophet making Valued Senior Member

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    tried christian forums got banned for posting this up, now joined belief net and we will see what happens

    could you explain your objective version of reality?
    good glad to hear it.
    which it does, it would just like the religious, to keep their beliefs to themselves, and not witness to all and sundre.
     
  11. Mosheh Thezion Registered Senior Member

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    2,650
    i will answer your questions.

    1) I am the spiritual leader of the Empirical Church of Humanity.
    I study all religions.. but i iam christian in that, JESUS is the leader of this church, and i simply work for him, as all these actions are based on his direct quotes as found in the bible.

    my religion... is actually science. yet, i see no distinction between science and religion, for the study of nature, is part of the quest to understand god, by understanding his creation and ourselves.



    2) to define god, is an impossibility, since god, by his nature, would literally exist outside our spatial universe, and is as such, not limited by any considerations which we would call reality.
    the only thing we can honestly say about god, is that god must of applied the energy to cause the developement of the universe, and as such, may have the ability to manipulate it on any level, from the cosmic, to the subatomic.
    we could discuss the quality of that applied energy, but that wasnt your question.




    3) omnimax??? yes.. of course.. if we consider how as in genesis, verse two, it says the spirit of god moved apon the face of the waters.
    suggesting the act of appling energy was the application of gods spirit.
    suggesting that perhaps the applied energy could be precieved as gods spirit, meaning the applied energy was gods spirit, which then literally, suggests that all the energy which has manifested on the aether, and within our spacetime as matter and energy..... is all bits of gods spirit.
    meaning we are made of god.... little pieces of....

    which is why in chapter 3 of genesis... god is made happy, when we, as humans have our eyes openned and know good from evil.
    for it was on that day... that gods children... became aware of god.



    4) a standard of morality??? of course.
    do unto others as you'd have them do unto you.

    this is as old as human thought.... if you wouldnt like IT.. dont do it to others.
    we all learn this as children... those that dont... grow up to be mean.

    this has nothing to do with religion... this is instinctive.
    religion simply put it into words.



    5) free will??? yes and no... sociology 101...
    beliefs... determine our attitudes about things.
    our attitudes deteremine our likely decisions in various circumstances.
    those decisions are... our daily behavior.

    if you were as a child instilled with christian views... your mind will be effected, and your beliefs, will lead to attitudes and those will control your behavior.... (just like islam.... rasies a different kind of belief / attitude.)

    you think.. this is your free mind??? is it??? where did you get the attitudes that you based your behavior on???
    where did you get your beliefs????
    you were taught.
    you were brain washed... into having basic general beliefs.
    those beliefs control your life... by controlling your mind.

    most of the problems people have.. come from bad beliefs.

    i can help, if your having problems.... its not hard.




    5) other gods??? false?? does that mean non-existant?
    or just not cool?
    this question is best asked on 7 different days of the week, and on different hours of each day.... since the potential answer will vary, from religion to religion and denomination to denomination...
    who's right??? no one knows.


    6) holy books??? sure why not...
    are they infallable??? ha.. of course not.. THEY WERE WRITTEN BY MEN.

    are they divinly inspired... possibly... who am i to say.
    are they worth reading... sure.. they are real cool.
    so cool.. people have obsessed over them for ages.
    truth... if it is our quest, can only be sought by study, and research, and hopefully on occassion, some adventure.


    7) evolution... yes... creation... yes also.
    youve seen my pictures havent you???
    should i go over it again??
    i tell you... there is no conflict between evolution and creation.
    but it will be a long discussion in itself.


    8) atheism... stems... from fear and the calm rational mind, in conjuction with what man thinks is the intelegent study of nature as a thing.
    humanism... adopts and upholds all the ideals of the fundamental code of knowing right from wrong... good from evil.. intuitively...
    it stems from knowing that we can be good and moral, since it is in our human nature to do so, for survival....
    as humans have survived as tribes and groups and villages.
    none of which demands religion or godly belief systems...
    so atheists always use humanism... to preach that god isnt needed.
    the humanist.. doesnt have to be atheist.
    but the atheists.. latches onto humanism... because they have nothing else.

    the agnostic... doesnt know... and as a rational man, sees reasons to believe, but also sees the arguements against the dogma of organised religions generally... and so.. just says... "IM AGNOSTIC"




    -MT
     
  12. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    72,825
    Alright
    I'm a Sunni Muslim

    I define God as the answer to the universal question: Why?
    He would have to be.

    I would define morality as: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

    There are guidelines within which it is acceptable to operate. They are required for us to have a fulfilling life with benefits to ourselves and others.

    Our moral parameters are part of our society. Animal socities have their own concepts of morality, geared towards their benefits and survival. Its not an all-encompassing ideology for the whole universe. There is no right and wrong, except as we perceive it to be.


    There is free will within boundaries: the boundaries of logic, natural laws and moral repercussions. I can choose to walk through walls but I cannot do so until I can overcome the physical attributes which prevent it from happening (or the walls are made from paper).
    I believe all gods are representation of one God.

    Yes, the Qur'an. Its not a textbook, its a guideline. One is supposed to use ones reason to follow the guideline. I adhere to it to the best of my ability.

    Yes, as I believe in science that is backed by evidence and supported by rigor.
    No, I see no contradicton
    They are part of the continuum from belief to disbelief that probably follows a normal distribution worldwide.
     
  13. Adstar Valued Senior Member

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    3,782
    :bugeye: i replied to this post yesterday, seems someone removed it?? I will try once again if it disappears again then woe to the one who removes it.



    I am not a member of any denomination. The closest denomination that i have found that believe as i do is the traditional Mennonite denomination. They where an offshoot from the Anabaptist movement.



    All I can give you in John chapter 1. I am under not obligation to work out the mystery of the relationship between God Jesus and the Holy Spirit. As i said it cannot be explained logically so to attempt to do so would be a waste of time anyway.



    Oh yes your opening post. You decided to use very small font, a font size that it too small to show up on my monitor. So i had to copy it and paste it into a word document and resize the font larger to read it. So i will take the word to mean God is everywhere, God is all knowing and God is all powerful.

    Yes i believe God has all wisdom and knowledge. Yes I believe nothing happens without God knowing it is happening and God has ultimate power to fulfil his will.



    God set His rules for us. He has never been under the rules he tailored for imperfect human beings. It is like a parent who tells their 3 year old child not to go into the big peoples pool but to stay in the toddlers pool. The adult is not under the restriction they place upon their children.



    The very fact that you have asked this question tells me you do not understand predetermination. Gods predetermination is not based on Him pre-programming people to accept or reject His will. Predetermination is based on Gods foreknowledge of peoples free will choices to either accept or reject His will.



    Did i say that? No. most worship carvings of wood and stone they worship nothing, while others worship Gods of their own mental construct. But Some and i said some do worship entities that exist but are not Gods these are spirits or demons if you like.




    Nothing comes from nothing. If something must come from something then a Creator is essential.



    I respect what is perfect. Humans are not perfect. therefore i do not respect them. Let me say that respect tp me means absolute confidence in a person. I can only have respect for someone infallible, therefore No man fits this requirement.



    And trusting in a system of living thought up by humans is trusting in an imperfect system. When people seek a perfect society based on the thoughts of imperfect men it always ends in disaster fascisms communism and globalist economic rationalism are just examples of strains of though that have lead and will lead the world to disaster. The most dangerous people are people who think they have found the way to a paradise on earth and go out to try and make it happen.


    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
     
  14. Godless Objectivist Mind Registered Senior Member

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    That is not what is ment by "predetermination" We know god has not pre-programed anything, however if free will exists, and a choice will be made, how do you account foreknowledge for that choice? if not predetermined?

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    Hense no free will! if an entity has foreknowledge of a choice, then there's no free will, it has been "predetermined" what that choice will be!

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    I have free will, and no entity can predetermine what my choices will be, "it" can't have foreknowledge of my choices, I have to deal with the consequences of choices made. Thus true free will, is to accept that no entity exists, that can predetermine, have foreknowledge of any choice one makes!
     
  15. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    geeser
    I wonder if xtians were lured into the coliseum by similar devices also (-gulp)
    Vaisnava

    yes
    SB 1.2.11: Learned transcendentalists who know the Absolute Truth call this nondual substance brahman, paramatma or bhagavan.
    more info

    yes - god is the localized form of all and everything - and besides that he exists independent and outside of all and everything (if you could possibly have everything on one set of the scales and god on the other, god would be greater)
    yes - never forget god and always remember god - this can be unpacked to form a myriad of social injunctions according to time place and circumstance to suit persons who are liberated, on the path of liberation or on the path of fruitive activities

    free wil exists, but the aperture it can be exhibited it in can shrink or enlargen according to the merits of a person - just like a school teacher may give three essay topic options, and regardless of which one the student chooses the teacher is fully knowledgeable about them all. Also both the criminal in jail and the free citizen can exhibit their free will, but because the criminal misused their independence they can only (temporarily - until their jail sentence is over) manifest their free will in a more restrictive environment

    The example is there that at midday millions of people perceive the sun is directly above their own head - there is of course only one sun, despite the millions of different eyewitness accounts - if someone said that the moon is the sun however that could be refuted - in other words not everything that goes down in the name of god is actually god.

    There are numerous scriptures within the vedas .
    However the ABC’s of spiritual life are in the Bhagavad-gita, the equivalent of grade school is in the Srimad Bhagavatm and the post graduate is Caitanya Caritamrta. On top of all this there are numerous commentaries on these writings (for instance I consult 4 or 5 commentators who’s authorship range from 800 to 10 years ago)
    Not sure what you are looking for in why scripture is infallible – like for eg do you want to know why I have a personal conviction about the nature of scripture (which would after all be subjective) or do you want to know the general principles behind the infallibility of scripture which can be applied to a variety of circumstances?
    As for adhering, that is the general idea – by following the instructions of god (given in scripture) one becomes sufficiently purified to disengage from sinful life and the nature of what is to be done and not to be done becomes self apparent – knowledge is nurtured by these things (and hampered to a greater or lesser extent by what is given in brackets)
    compassion (meat eating), truthfulness (gambling), austerity (intoxication), cleanliness (illicit sexual connections). So a person who is a brahmin (works by knowledge, as opposed to the administration of a ksatriya. the mercantile nature of the vaisya or labour of the sudra) has a tendency to naturally nurture these qualities. And it is the bona fide brahmin who has the ability to understand scriptures
    The Vedas state that there are 8 400 000 species of life (400 000 humans) and the movement between one species and another (BTW this is 8 400 000 in the entire material manifestation, which is not just limited to this earth), which constitutes a type of evolution, happens not on the platform of the corporeal body but the soul (In otherword s there is a dualistic concept that the self is distinct from the body, and just like we change from our winter clothes to our summer clothes over time, the spirit soul accepts and rejects different bodies according to its activities in this world – karma)

    The vedic calculation of time is quite vast, and frankly quite beyond the scope of empiricism to make much of a judgment of – perhaps it differs most from evolutionary/Christian concepts of time in that it is cyclic and that it operates not by the principle of evolution to a higher form but of de-evolution (complex forms and structures get established by god/god’s representatives and gradually over time deteriorate until the are due to be re-established again) - there are 4 universal seasons that take place over 4 320 000 years – at the end there (approximately 430 000 years from now) is the opportunity for a type of superficial devastation (happens on the face of the earth planet) as things change from the “winter” of kali yuga to the “spring” of satya yuga.. After 71 of such superficial devastations (306 720 000 years) there is the opportunity for a planetary re-alignment (which tends to be a more severe devastation). And after 14 of such planetary alignments (4 320 000 000 years) there is a definite partial universal devastation that goes all the way to the top leaving only the upper most planet. And after 36 000 such partial devastations there is a complete universal devastation (311 040 000 000 000 years) where all the material elements get reabsorbed into the body of god (god and the spiritual universe remain eternal and independent from the changes of the material universe – another dualistic concept) . This is just the workings of one universe – there are practically an infinite number of material universes being absorbed and emanating from the body of god at every moment.
    (these calculations begin from the atomic calculation of time, which basically begins at 1/16 875 of a second)

    BTW just in case someone asks you what the time is you can say, by vedic calculations, we are 430 000 years away from the 29th superficial devastation after the 7th planetary realignment after the 19 000 complete universal devastations (in case you are counting we have another 19 000 to go)
    That makes the earth about half waythrough its life expectancy at approximately 5 676 480 008 588 164 995 years old

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    Anyway,as all this relates to evolution and the "evidence" that we dig up, there are a few possibilities - the easiest being that it is not the past we are digging up but the future



    Practically everyone in this world is an atheist to a greater or lesser extent – if we weren’t we wouldn’t be here - still there is the distinction between a person trying to implement the instructions of god in their life and the person who does not – I tend to regard an atheist like someone messing with a complex piece of machinery (ie – this world) without reading the instruction manual. Humanism is perhaps like someone who has glanced at the quick start manual.



    (raises umbrella to prepare for the onslaught of ad homs)
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2006
  16. The Devil Inside Banned Banned

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    wildly unorthodox judaism is my flavor.

    nope.

    i dont know. probably.

    i dictate my own morals to myself. seeing as i am my own worst critic, i tend to be a fairly generous, merciful person.

    yeah. the ability to choose is free will.
    yes, it exists.
    it sits inside of predetermination in this way: imagine taping a football game because you have to work. when you get home, the game is over, but you watch anyhow....cheering for your team, even though the outcome has already been decided. your cheering represents free will.

    no, they are all quite real. however, the worship of anything is a waste of time.

    yeah, all of them are important in their own way.

    yes.
    no.

    *shrug* you choose what you like. its none of my business. keep on truckin', if that is your cup of tea.
     
  17. Light Travelling It's a girl O lord in a flatbed Ford Registered Senior Member

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    There is a state of absolute being, of pure being, which is the true nature of reality. This is the true nature of existence. It is the true nature of ourselves, it may also be called god. It is not a separate space or place or entity. It is things as they really are. The purpose of existence is to realise our true nature and rest in this. The problem being that we are bound in an illusion of being individual physical beings living individual finite lives. Although the physical world has reality i.e. objects really do exist, it is our concepts of them and our perceived relationships to them that are not real and are illusory (our bodies are objects in this sense too).

    (be sure to understand my meaning correctly here. I am not saying ‘A’ pure being just a state of pure being)


    You ask in relation to omniscity. In the sense that god is true nature or true being, knowledge is obviously possessed of this. This knowledge of true reality is all that is required for omniscience. As all phenomenal knowledge (all relative knowledge of this world) is illusory and as such is really nscience.
    As god is everything by definition omnipresence is achieved.
    Omnipotence is achieved by god being the laws of the universe - the laws of nature (nature itself in fact), or physical laws. What is more powerful than nature (as god is not a separate being do not confuse this with a powerful being or entity – the universe itself is powerful).
    Omnibenevolence is fallacy, as good and bad are only relative concepts, in the state of true being there is no duality and as such there can be no benevolence or its opposite.
     
  18. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    One might equally say that since we are products of evolutionary selection, all our actions (including violence, murder, lying, cheating etc) and the consequences (war, starvation, deprivation, etc) are merely gene selection in process. That our actions are at the mercy of genetic mechanisms we can neither understand nor direct. That being so, we have no free will anyway only an illusion of it.
     
  19. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    The flaw in that argument, of course, is that we would have all slaughtered one another ages ago. Evidently though, those traits appear to exist all the more in societies that strongly uphold false ideologies.
     
  20. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Quite possibly but since evolution is neither right nor wrong, our refusal to become extinct is an accident of nature, nothing else.
     
  21. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

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    One might, but I believe one would be incorrect.
    One might do well to recognize and appreciate the difference between influence and predetermination.
    One might look at mob mentality as an example...
    One might be in a crowd of people screaming about some such thing or another, and be swept away by that crowd.
    On the other hand, however, even one who was swept away is free at any time at all to simply decide to stop.
    One may be greatly influenced by advertizing campaigns, and spend $350 of one's money on an iPod, just like millions of other people - but one may also decide not to.
     
  22. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Yes and the ones who persist (or survive) are the ones who multiply. If our personalities are a product of our biology, then environmental interaction is merely what helps to weed out what is best suited to survive.
     
  23. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    What does that mean?

    What does that mean?
     

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