Time travel is Achievable

Discussion in 'Intelligence & Machines' started by X-Ide, Feb 27, 2004.

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  1. X-Ide Registered Member

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    Time travel is very achievable within a few years, in my opinion. It just won't be achievable in the sense as we think of it. Imagine a world wherein every molecule has a machine attached (nanotechnology). That machine can save its current state and position. These numbers are saved to a central server (presumably with a large hard drive :D ), and the molecules react normally. Every nanosecond, the machine saves its position and state. In order to travel back in time, one just tells every molecule to revert to its state and position at a certain time. This information can be retrieved from the central server, and sent to the molecular machines. In essence, this would be going back in time. Of course, many details are left out here, and the time travel would only allow to go as far back as when the "nano-world" was created, but it is an intriguing idea, is it not? Any comments?

    X-Ide
     
  2. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Super Moderator

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    There would be a few problems there, like Zero-point.

    If you could move everything to the position it was once at, there would still be quanta in the universe in a different position than where it was before, as that quanta has no substance to physically manipulate (namely energy).

    This means there would still be chaos in a system although you have absolutely every measurement.

    To reset the molecular presence of every atom would mean that the quanta that would be existing in other places because of the harmony of molecules following there natural path, you could potentially increase the radioactivity of the molecule by holding in a location where quanta should be alone. (namely an overlay of particles and free flowing energy)

    Nice idea though.
     
  3. Neurocomp2003 Registered Senior Member

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    well you'd also have to save what the nanos were doing to.

    But I don't think it would be possible because of the number of particles you'd have to save position and time for. After millions of years a particle could have traveled some lengthy distance...don't have my astro text so i won't do the math

    and according to Dynamical Systems and Cellular Automata, Time reversible is quite impossible do to the fact taht you would not know where the particle was before
    it reached that state.
     
  4. Blindman Valued Senior Member

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    I’ve been using the undo button on my computer for years does that mean I’m a time traveler???
     
  5. X-Ide Registered Member

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    StryderUnknown: I kind of forgot about zero-point :D . That's a good point. What could be some consequences from that? Could you infinitely increase the quanta in an area by constantly going back and moving forward?

    Neurocomp: That's what I meant by state. Also, computers increase exponentially in power and decrease in size, so maybe we will get to that point one day. They are working on nanomolecules as we speak. Read up on smart dust. It's pretty cool stuff. As for cellular automata and dynamic systems, that would have anything to do with the computers saving their own position with a system similar to GPS.

    Blindman: If you lived inside the computer, then yes. Imagine if your entire world was "undid".

    X-Ide
     
  6. Neurocomp2003 Registered Senior Member

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    but you gotta remember that with all those states saved...you must have a near instant msging system from one end of the universe to the other
    which would be that your info-transport would need to travel past the speed of light and maybe even "1000" times faster.

    no CA or DS? does that mean you would only save discrete instances in time?
    can you travel backwards in time to places before the time machine was?
    Becuase if that is the case then CA and DS are important
     
  7. X-Ide Registered Member

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    You could not travel to a point in time before the nanomolecule system existed. It's not really travelling in time. You are on the same continuum, it is a recreation of a world in time before. In a sense, it is travelling in time, but in reality it is not. And I have not thought of a way to send the information over long distances yet. I was thinking of just a "room" of this type of system. Whereas, you move a pillow, wait 10 minutes, then set the system to move itself back to where it was.

    X-Ide
     
  8. zonabi free thinker Registered Senior Member

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    i might get hounded for saying this, but what if the information could be sucked thru a black hole and retrieved at another black hole on the other side of the universe. black holes has enough gravity and mass to suck in light, therefore it would shoot the information almost INSTANTLY, like u said- way faster than light travels alone.

    Now, discarding black holes, the more probable solution related to this time travel idea would be WormHoles, possibly man-made. there has been recordings of micro-sized wormholes that appear and dissapear just as fast. they have been recorded in and around the "bermuda triangle" area, oddly enough.

    but picture this. u have a nanocomputerchip with your stored information on whatever (the "states" you spoke of) - now , place this nanobot inside a microwormhole that is programmed to shoot the information thru the fabric of space and time out to wherever it is you wanted.
     
  9. Pete It's not rocket surgery Moderator

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    Your nano-machines and control system is presumably outside the realm of the time-controlled region?

    So, you've effectively got a system in which you can control time... it's sounds interesting to begin with, but is this really different to a play which is held every night? (the actors and scenes are set to their initial position each day). Or an RPG with a savegame feature?
     
  10. Inner Fire Registered Member

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    wow. that would be weird... if you could really simulate time travel, say, 24 hours back, then you would be exactly where you were 24 hours ago, and you would continue to do the same simulation over and over again every 24 hours. Every day will be groundhog's day, except you wouldn't know it. ;-) But I guess that depends on whether you believe in "free will" =X

    Also, I'm not very knowledgable in physics, but I presume you would need some type of recursive or steady-state situation in order for the universe to continually reenact itself.
     
  11. FNG2k4 Registered Senior Member

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    What if you did that for the person . IE used nanobots for rewinding a persons personal biological clock so he/she would not age and found a way to maintain the same memories of what happened in the past.

    as mentioned above.
    The biggest problem with this is rewinding time like this would do you no good unless you did not rewind yourself or you found a way for you to remember what happened or else you would really just be reliving the same day with only little random changes.
     
  12. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Super Moderator

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    X-Ide stated:
    "I kind of forgot about zero-point . That's a good point. What could be some consequences from that? Could you infinitely increase the quanta in an area by constantly going back and moving forward?"

    At first instance it would appear that if you could generate a paradox to loop future quanta back to a past point that you could eventually end up with an extremely high energy output because of a form of feedback, but the reality is slightly different.

    The above mentioned method would work on a universe that uses Multiworlds where the layers all align on top of each other, however to make a parallel universe system that works and doesn't suffer this "Overload Feedback loop", it would mean constructing a way at which the quanta is deposited across the universe at different points in space.

    (This can be done through the use of Mirror mechanics and spacial folds through the amount of times the energy is relayed.)

    This method would make it safe because 1: The quanta is not all at one location and 2: time allows for entropy (Chaos) where differing free flowing energy can interact and cause uncalculateable effects and bestows universal diversity.

    Admittedly it would be possible to generate very small paradoxes of distance, and when coupled together to create a kind of relay of small jumps adding up to equal a big one you get to see how time and space could be manipulated.
    (This is where most people would presume the realms of wormholes exist)

    Another theory for you to consider is this, If I was to take an object from now and send it back through time (It doesn't matter how long) then allow that object to age to the point that I sent it and send the same object again (The one that was sent in the first place).

    It would eventually become the oldest object in the universe, if it didn't have a meltdown first (since it would suffer a radioactive decay over "time").

    [There were another theory that you could do a similar loop with a specie from this planet that is bound not to be a dominant one due to us humans being so controlling, you could then find out how the specie would have evolved]

    [NOTE: These theories as ludicrious as they sound aren't created because "Theres a reality for them", they are to give a better understanding of the universe around us and how it works in areas that we currently don't fully understand how to explore]

    Hope that covers some of the finer points.
     
  13. X-Ide Registered Member

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    My idea is very much similar to an RPG with a "save game feature". But then the idea is, if the nanomolecules are returned to an original state, would they act the same exact way they did the first time?

    For Instance:

    Say the nanomolecules makeup a forest. In the forest is a nano-squirrel. The first instance, it gets an acorn and takes up the tree, and makes a left onto the second branch. If "rewound", and left alone, would the squirrel get the acorn again? If it does, would it take it up the tree? If it does, would it take a left onto the second branch? This has countless implications in various fields of study: psychology, philosophy, even religion. Do we have a soul? Is it testable?

    Also, in reading this past week's Time magazine, I noticed an article speaking of a Swiss Physicist teleporting a photon over four miles away. Could the nanomolecules possibly be teleported also, while saving their previous info? I think so. So therefore if the entire world were made of nano-molecules, and a disaster struck, such as the Columbia disaster, you could then take the molecules in that area, send them back in time, teleport them to NASA, and then run them again to see what happened. Of course, all of this taking place in a very large building :D .

    I have not examined the physics on these few ideas as of yet, but I will, and will post later.

    X-Ide
     
  14. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Super Moderator

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    A few things, as I mentioned previously the zero-point of the surrounding universe that you don't have control over would create "Uncertainty", which would mean that you might have nanosystems that can work out the exact location, but the subparticle physics that they would use to move and hold things in their location would be effected by this uncertainty.

    Another thing is if you have a Disaster where people die, would you want them to have to go through the steps of being reanimated to die again through a disaster just to see what happened? The relative thinking of the individuals if they knew that observers were messing around at that level would want to live, even if the observers believed to allow them so would mess the universe up. (or timeline if using paradoxes)
     
  15. X-Ide Registered Member

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    But then, if the world is controllable and settable, then what would be ethical? It raises another question: are the living beings in the world actually real? Real in the sense of caring? I'm not sure how to put this, but I think you may have the jest of it.

    X-Ide
     
  16. antifreeze defrosting agent Registered Senior Member

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    i hope your grand machine performs a "rewind" function rather than a "undo" function, lest we be left with very little bits of squirrel. :bugeye:
    and as for ethics, the only issue here is the removed of the "living" being "free-will" via attachment of the nano-bots. without their unpredictability, the "living" collections of molecules become nothing more than simple variables.
     
  17. crazymikey Open-minded Scientist Registered Senior Member

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    X-ide, to answer your question:

    It raises another question: are the living beings in the world actually real? Real in the sense of caring?

    I understand what you mean, and my answer is, they/we are not. However to be honest what is real and not real, really makes no difference, because we always will "think" we are real.

    We are a system, like any other physicial system, with in built processes. The concept of free will is a misnomer. We are governed by laws; natural laws; biological laws; societal laws; environmental laws - there is no window for the exercision of free will.

    I cannot choose to not feel pain when I am hurt, as much as I cannot choose to fly if I jump of a building. All my responses are already preprogrammed, in nature, and in me. If I could reprogram my biology, or nature, I can force new responses.

    Similarily, in an AI system, I can force responses from it, that make it think "it is real" and has "free will" No one could deny it's right to think it exists, without deying their own right to think they exist.
     
  18. X-Ide Registered Member

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    That would be quite hilarious. I was making an analogy to the computer example from earlier. It would not be either an undo function or a rewind function: it would be a "restore to previous state" function. I think that's the easiest way to explain it.


    That's my question here: is free-will separated from molecules? Do we have a mind? Do we have a soul? If you "rewound" and played it back, would the resulting entities be the same?

    Crazymikey: Is reality perhaps relative then? Would this not make sense, as we are the species that has instituted reality?
     
  19. eburacum45 Valued Senior Member

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    Here is my essay on why time travel is not possible in the fictional Orion's Arm universe;
    http://www.orionsarm.com/intro/WhyNoTimeTravel.html

    the real universe may also have its own chronological protection principle; we certainly don't see the effects of such time travel but the question remains;
    would we be aware of them?
     
  20. crazymikey Open-minded Scientist Registered Senior Member

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    X-ide: It's a conceptual duality we force onto nature to justify our existence. Otherwise nothing really exists. It really depends on your existential philosophy. Your state of existence is subjective to you. For me, it's a whole lot of nothing.
     
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