Time dialation

Discussion in 'Free Thoughts' started by Xelasnave.1947, Dec 2, 2017.

1. Xelasnave.1947Valued Senior Member

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Well I must assume my simple approach must be flawed some how.
Thanks for your help and patience.
I can only be honest.
I would expect to see the beam slanting to the rear of the vehicle be it that I observed either from in or outside the vehicle.
I have yet to observe the penny drop but don't worry I will think about this more.
Thanks again.
Alex

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5. Janus58Valued Senior Member

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Let's be clear, in the scenario for which this question is being asked, the Box is not moving with respect to the "road", and it is the outside observer that is moving with respect to the road. What effect could the outside observer's motion have on what the observer in the box would see?

7. Xelasnave.1947Valued Senior Member

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Thanks Dave.
Chambers 123 I agree.
Consider this diagram.
The dots I would like to call photons simply to make them descrete.
When the photon leaves the last chamber the photons for the earlier podsitions should be,will be? placed at that instant as represented by the diagram.
Now don't pull your hair out but I am unable to see it otherwise at this time.
I am thinking if you see the light beam like a jet of water from a travelling water hose that fits my current position.
Alex

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8. Xelasnave.1947Valued Senior Member

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I don't know.
I thought the outside observer was standing on the road.
If he is moving along at the same speed my initial, off the top,answer probably won't change from the proposition I just now pit to Dave and that is that the beam would appear bent towards the back (where the vehicle is travelling from).
I can only suggest a visualisation along the lines of driving in your car and firing a water pistols upwards.
The squirt will arch backwards from the car.
My head is starting to hurt if that is any concelation.
Alex

9. SeattleValued Senior Member

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There is a light clock on a moving train. One unit of time passes with each complete cycle of the light. Down and back up is one unit...let's just call it a second.

There is an observer on a stationary train platform. When the train isn't moving the person on the train and the stationary observer see the same thing. One cycle is one second.

Once the train is at speed the person on the train see the light bean move down and up since the mirrors are moving at the same speed as the train.

The stationary observer sees the light moving at an angle since he isn't moving with the train. He sees that the light has to take a longer path in that same unit of time (one second).

Therefore, from the stationary observers reference, time on the train is moving more slowly. The speed of light is constant so to travel a greater distance time must slow down.

Time passes normally to the person on the train in his frame of reference. Time passes normally to the stationary observer in his frame of reference.

10. Xelasnave.1947Valued Senior Member

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Thanks.
If all are so focused on time why do trains run late?
I get the idea of how time dilates I just think the way the behaviour of light is presented is not the way it will work.
My problem.
Have a great day I must say before I go it has been great forcing my old brain to consider the issues...
Must help to keep it working..at least I hope it helps.
And again for the record I have faith that SR and GR will survive my input.
Alex

11. Xelasnave.1947Valued Senior Member

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And hopefully folk who read this thread will get an understanding of a little about SR and our posts generate a little more traffic for the site. Also that if one has questions there is a polite way to approach things...you see so many folk who think they have found a problem and off they go thinking 100 years of research falls away because they have arrived.
Alex

Seattle likes this.
12. Janus58Valued Senior Member

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And I was asking to imagine the scenario where the outside observer was moving along the road and the box wasn't. I was trying to make the point that now matter which scenario you chose, the observations would be identical.
Not unless you are driving a convertible, with the top down. If you were in a enclosed cabin of a car and fired the water pistol straight up, the squirt will travel straight up relative to the car. ( if you aim straight up at a spot on the roof, you will hit that spot. ) the only time the squirt would curve backwards is if you were accelerating the car as you fired. But the light clock experiment does not involve acceleration only inertial motion. If you are assuming that the squirt of water will hit some spot on the roof behind the spot you aimed at, you are operating under a huge misconception even when it comes to Newtonian physics.

13. Xelasnave.1947Valued Senior Member

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Really well yes but I had in mind holding the water pistol out of the window and shooting straight up...in a vacuum.

So I feel an experiment is called for if only by me.

This would be neat irrespective of results, ...

We get a rocket sled set up a laser pointing up, high speed cameras, in fact contract the thing to Mythbusters although for this experiment they would have to drop the word myth.
And so send the rocket shed at full tilt and fire off various beams and photograph everything.
Do it at night even charge admission as it would be very cool.
Alex

14. Janus58Valued Senior Member

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The water would still go straight up and down relative to the car. ( as an example, watch from the 40 sec mark in this promo for "Young Sheldon" http://www.cbs.com/shows/young-shel...4MqVyXnvYM8IvzvMFvC/young-sheldon-first-look/
A version of this experiment was done already in 1887. It was the Michelson-Morley experiment, which was an attempt to measure the Earth's motion by using light. The result was consistent with what the light-clock experiment predicts.

15. Xelasnave.1947Valued Senior Member

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Thanks for the link I get a server error so I will look on something else latter.
Alex

16. Xelasnave.1947Valued Senior Member

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I can see that ..momentum I expect.
Alex

17. DaveC426913Valued Senior Member

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I don't understand why you redesigned my diagram. What didn't you like about it? It explained exactly what the solution was.

Photon is travelling down the laser pump parallel to its walls, while the laser is moving the right.
So the photon is moving at a 45 degree angle, even while it is inside the laser.
Why would it do anything different as it exits?

18. Xelasnave.1947Valued Senior Member

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Only to try and demonstrate how I thought it may be.
I however think I have things worked out.
Thanks for your help and patience.
Alex

19. DaveC426913Valued Senior Member

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In my diagram, there is only one laser and one photon.
The diagram is eight frames of an animation
showing that one laser moving to the right.

20. Xelasnave.1947Valued Senior Member

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I have it now thanks.

Alex