I read somewhere (I beleive it was a newsweek recap of the anniversary or something) That no one knows who he was and after that he just ran off into the crowd. Was he actually wiped from Chinese records, or was it just that they had no real record to wipe.
Hi all - This is my first post, and I'm afraid it's a bit on the long side [understatement of the year, I know.....Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ]. I was searching for a picture of the Chinese 'tank guy', and stumbled across this forum as a result. After reading the thread thus far, I found all of your comments really interesting......after having done a lot of reading recently though, I felt I should to mention a few things about the current state of our 'protected' liberties. Particularly, in reference to the changes to our laws brought about by the (criminally misnamed ) USA Patriot Act [U.S.A.P.A.] The USA Patriot Act is an insult to every American. The name itself is bitterly ironic, given what the Act contains and what it's passage will someday be known for: the moment we surrendered democratic law and Constitutional principles in the name of percieved physical safety. In particular, it utterly relinquishes any semblance of due process, violates the First, Fourth, Fifth, Sixth and Eighth Amendments, and unacceptably mixes aspects of criminal investigations with aspects of immigration and foreign intelligence laws. Let me state it even more bluntly. This law is dangerous. It's a travesty. It is most definitely unpatriotic. What's worse, is that few of us have the slightest idea what this law contains or what it means. Why? Because, the USA Patriot Act has several clever, and seemingly innocuous, linguistic changes in it that have enabled it to slip by the awareness of the average American. Had I not sought out more detailed information than we all get in an evening news broadcast, I probably wouldn't have had a clue myself as to how dangerous and damaging passage of this act really was. Two of my main misconceptions were that, first, it relates mostly to foreign nationals (So it can't affect U.S. citizens, right? Wrong.).....and second, it deals only with terrorism (And we're not terrorists, are we? Don't be so sure.....the definition is open only to the interpretation of the law's enforcers). If you think this law applies only to the villains that attacked our nation, think again. Many provisions in this law apply to, and affect, Americans........ in many ways. Ways that are, to be sure, frightening in the extreme. Not only does the U.S.A.P.A. demolish many of our once protected liberties, most of these new powers do little to increase the ability of law enforcement or intelligence to bring terrorists to justice. They do, however, much to undermine the Constitution and violate the rights of both immigrants and American citizens alike. Our intelligence community has repeatedly stated that they had a wealth of information on the terrorists, but that a convoluted organizational system prevented that info from rising to the 'top of the stack'. Rather than punch holes through our Bill of Rights, wouldn't it make more sense to address the problems that actually prevented our law-enforcement folks from stopping the attacks? Apparently not. Another reason why Americans do not yet know what a terrifying weapon has been put in their government's hand, is that the Act is extremely nuanced and amends numerous other previously existing laws. For example, one provision merely amends the words of an earlier act, which had read "the purpose," to read "a significant purpose." What difference could that tiny change make? It makes it possible for the FBI to evade the probable cause warrant requirement in criminal investigations whenever the FBI decides the information might have "a significant purpose" in an intelligence investigation. No court can intervene. In other words, the legal protection that a court must decide that there is probable cause of criminal activity before a search or seizure can be made is completely tossed here. If the FBI thinks the information might contribute to an investigation, whatever the target's activity might be, legal or not, the FBI can simply go search and seize. (And under the new "sneak and peek" provisions, they can do so without your ever knowing it.) Note that this clause mixes foreign intelligence gathering with domestic criminal investigation, allowing the FBI to spy on Americans whom no court has determined have done anything wrong. The information gathered, under another provision of the Act, can now be shared with the CIA, in blatant violation of its charter, which expressly bars it from engaging in domestic spying. That one little clause creates an end-run around the Fourth Amendment.....it allows those in power to apply these new provisions against Americans as well as aliens. Another good example of the kind of change brought about under the U.S.A.P.A., which illustrates the underlying and pre-existing agenda of its proponents, is section 218. Section 218 amends a single phrase in the 1978 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA). The purpose of FISA was to allow intelligence agencies to gather information about foreign powers without the restrictions imposed on them by the Constitution. The reasoning for this was that the purpose of foreign intelligence gathering is not to detect crimes, but to gather information about foreign agents/spies. This means that if an official will certify that obtaining foreign intelligence is a significant purpose of a surveillance action, he can then avoid the requirement that he first show probable cause of criminal activity. It means the FBI, the CIA, or any other intelligence agency, can surveil you without probable cause, as long as they say the surveillance has something to do with a foreign intelligence investigation of some sort (which may otherwise not even involve you). Because courts have consistently refused to second guess FISA surveillance certifications, there is, in effect, no judicial review of such activities - certainly not one mandated by law. This small change has HUGE ramifications...... For all practical purposes, section 218 U.S.A.P.A amendment of FISA allows government to completely avoid Fourth Amendment probable cause requirements for searches and seizures of American citizens (not just immigrants). These are but two examples of the ways the act has sabotaged the Bill of Rights - the U.S.A.P.A is, quite literally, full of them. Somewhat ominously, despite the fact that the USA Patriot Act was passed hastily and without any significant debate or hearings ( not to mention under a cloak of fear....fear for our physical safety, and fear that by questioning it's legal effect, one would be painted as 'un-American' ) its provisions were very carefully thought out, and crafted to take power out of the hands of courts and ensure absolute lack of oversight of law enforcement and intelligence gathering. There is no way that the USA Patriot Act came into existence solely in response to September 11th. In fact, it's clear from prior legislative and case history that law enforcement and intelligence have been trying for many years to obtain these powers. It was the Reagan Administration which initially proposed some of the most troubling provisions which eventually became part of the U.S.A.P.A. When Reagan proposed these provisions, Congress rejected them on constitutional grounds. The first Bush Administration then made very similar proposals, which were also rejected by lawmakers. Congress twice refused to enact the secret evidence provisions proposed by the 1st President Bush ( In fact, just prior to September 11, Congress was about to pass a law repealing the secret evidence provisions of Clinton's equally shameful 1996 Antiterrorism Act.). The constitutionally shocking (& terrifying) provisions proposed by Reagan and the first Bush included the resurrection of guilt by association, association as grounds for exclusion or deportation, the ban on supporting lawful activities of groups labeled terrorist, the use of secret evidence, and the empowerment of the Secretary of State to designate groups as terrorist organizations, without judicial or congressional review. It is only the mentality that followed September 11th that allowed its planners to pass it at all. Our individual personal freedom is not just a idea that we toss around on the Fourth of July - it is the single most crucial part of the legacy of our founding fathers. It is what we ask our young military men and women to die to protect. It is most certainly not appropriate to enact sweeping Constitutional 'changes' that revoke many of those freedoms as an emotional response to the fear and horror we all felt after the 11th of September. No generation of Americans should ever surrender their personal liberties because they are afraid of folks from other countries.......I like to think we're braver than that (in fact, I know we are). We, as responsible and thoughtful citizens, need to take a good, hard, impartial, and nonpartisan look at the USA Patriot Act, so we can tell our representatives what we think of it. Thankfully, the Supreme Court recently struck down one of the act's more glaring provisions.....hopefully, if we're lucky, it will continue to do so. Still, personally, I find it pretty scary that so many of our most basic freedoms teeter on the edge of the court's decision - and that's only if one has the wherewithal to challenge them. By not demanding the immediate repeal of the "patriot" act (by way of letters/calls to our elected leaders) ourselves, we're allowing the very foundation of our country to be unnecessarily jeopardized. By allowing this new suite of police powers to go unchallenged by 'we the people', it seems as though we're saying "I don't really care about the Bill of Rights......If the Supreme Court allows the government to prevent the legal recognition of my inalienable rights - well, then I guess that's okay 'cause they know best...". I really can't understand why the country seems to be so wholeheartedly behind an act of law that instantly surrendered freedoms so dearly earned and defended for almost 250 years. Please, in addition to your own rights and safety, think of all the brave men and women that have sacrificed their lives to protect our country and our freedoms. Seriously folks - their sacrifices will all be in vain if we allow our Bill of Rights to be slowly (or, more accurately, quickly) stripped of it's power. As Benjamin Franklin said, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.". I'm actually a little afraid that people will think me unpatriotic or un-American for saying all this - I assure you, nothing could be further from the truth. I'm not a radical by any stretch of the imagination ....I'm a pretty regular guy that works a fairly boring job [software licensing....kinda dry Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ], pays my taxes, and drives a Subaru. I LOVE my country - many of my close relatives have died in combat for it (5 that I know of). I have always been very proud of the country I was lucky enough to be born in - even as a little kid. However.....how can I, or any of us, claim to care about our country and our heritage if we completely turn our backs on them when they are assailed by the Administration and/or Congress? American government, and the values and principles it embodies, is, in my opinion, humanity's first and greatest hope for a worldwide future in which the individual's right's are recognized, valued, and protected by universally respected law. To let that dream die on our watch would be absolutely unforgivable - how can we let this happen to our children (and theirs....and theirs...etc)? Once we start wiping away our rights with such broad and reckless strokes, we really have nothing left. The founders were some brilliant fellows....these protections were well thought out, and included as the foundation of our government for a reason. American's have never been able to say "We live in complete safety from crime and terrorism." - we couldn't say that pre-9/11, and we won't be able to say it tomorrow. We (are supposed to) live in a free society - that means that we, as individuals, are free - it does not mean, that we are free from any and all possible threats to our safety at all times. It is not possible to be so. It IS however, possible to value and protect our freedoms......we only need to inform ourselves, and decide to do so. Please write, or call, your elected officials and tell them you value our Bill of Rights and our Constitution, and want to see them protected above all else. Talk to your friends and families. Seek out detailed information that will reveal to you exactly what this law has done to our Bill of Rights. If we don't protect our inalienable American freedoms first - then what is it exactly that we are left with to protect? Save the real estate and throw out the principles and ideals? I sure hope not. Thanks for listening everyone - Remember, misnomers aside, the most important patriotic acts come from all of us...........W.A. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "[T]he USA PATRIOT Act . . . stands out as radical in its design. To an unprecedented degree, the Act sacrifices our political freedoms in the name of national security and upsets the democratic values that define our nation by consolidating vast new powers in the executive branch of government. . . . Chillingly, the Attorney General's response to the passage of the USA PATRIOT Act was not a pledge to use his new powers responsibly and guard against their abuse, but instead was a vow to step up his detention efforts. Conflating immigrant status with terrorist status, he declared: `Let the terrorists among us be warned, if you overstay your visas even by one day, we will arrest you.' . . . The Administration's blatant power grab, coupled with the wide array of 'anti-terrorism' tools that the USA PATRIOT Act puts at its disposal, portends a wholesale suspension of civil liberties that will reach far beyond those who are involved in terrorist activities." --Nancy Chang, "The USA PATRIOT Act: What's So Patriotic About Trampling on the Bill of Rights?," Sr. Litigation Atty, Center for Constitutional Rights, November 2001 "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -Theodore Roosevelt
Welcome, and thanks for the excellent post, WorriedAmerican. I agree with you very much, because I sense that the United States are facing now, and in the near future, the greatest test of our mettle since the Civil War. Fascist tendencies (and I don't mean to use the term "fascist" flippantly) are emerging within our society that are prone to breeding ever more cancerous fear. Both competitors and enemies of the USA can be expected to exploit this fear to the fullest, in a vicious feedback cycle that could rapidly take us down. Americans are not known for our close popular attention to issues like security legislation and to world events, nor are we renowned for participating concertedly in our government "of, by, and for the People". But we had better learn to do so very quickly, because this game is for keeps. I strongly suspect that we are now experiencing something akin to the "Golden Hour" in the vernacular of trauma care, when Americans aware of the rising domestic threat to our freedoms must speak out at every opportunity, and must make every possible opportunity to be heard. A gathering storm threatens to erode our democracy not gradually, but in crushing waves, as the international consequences to our hubristic leadership bring severe economic crisis, and personal consequences to dissenting from a panicked nationalistic stampede toward fascism become dramatically more severe than we perceive them to be at present. I can't imagine myself confronting my country's tanks in my own streets if it comes to that, as did our unknown Chinese hero: I will in such an eventuality more probably continue my life elsewhwere, if America's creeping slide toward fascism becomes an avalanche, and I manage an escape. But here I stand now, when I believe it counts the most, with true American patriots like yourself who will truly defend (as I have sworn) this nation from enemies foreign and domestic. Let's dump Bush, America, and then demand the complete repeal of the "Patriot" Acts.
If he was not killed, then he is still held somewhere out of reach, as where any persons foolish enough to reveal association with him But he's most likely dead. That is most plausible explanation for his identity having eluded us for this long.
hello,everyone,i come from china(PRC),my english is not good,though i still want to say something about this image,that young man probably have died in 1989 beacause the next day he stood in front of another tanks ,but this time the tank didn't stop................. i have video about the accident of tiananmen(天安门） 1989 in my hard driver,but how can i upload it? and i want to know what is western people's opinon about 1989 tiananmen square ? and china is now a country which give its pepole no huamn rights at all,the goverment mention no one word about 1989 during the past 16 years,no one picture. About 90% people born after 1980' don't know "1989 tiananmen" ,even haven't seen a picture
if some one want to see more video about 1989 chinses soldiers open fires to protestor ,give me your e-mail ,i will send it to you
I am sorry to inform you all - but as I am older than most of you, I still remember the whole story - about 2 months after his deed he was executed - the news about his execution was in the television in Europe in those days ..... the police arrested him and used this video in the trial against him ........ He was a brave guy , but paid the ultimate price - his life ........
He has been executed?not that exately,this guy disappear in the crowd,no one know he is alive or dead,even can't determine his name(but some chinese say he is a teacher,named wang weilin 王维林，)jiang zemin(former leader of china) tell mike wallace in cbs 60minutes 2000 that this guy was not been arrested ,but when wallace want to get more detail about this brave yong man ,jiang zemin say he know nothing about him either,but some chinese citizen believe the man either died of another tank in the next day or been executed by jiang zemin secretly, i have doucementary film name "THE GATE OF HEAVENLY PEACE 1989" ,have anyone here seen the film?
I have a friend who was an exhange styudent at the time of Tianimen Square. She said the demonstrations were directed at one major worry point. They were asking for guarnatees that the Red Purge (during Mao's time) would not happen again. I suppose that this could be interpreted as some kind of plea for democracy, but it wasn't really. Geistkliesel
you all seem to have a strong grasp on the tiananmen square issue. My frineds and i are doing a history project on Tiananmen Square and once i stubbled on this forum that maybe you can give us a hand. if you know of any interviews online, or video clips i ask that you please email me at aerospce@gmail.com thank you.
can you give your frined my email address (aerospce@gmail.com) i need interviews for my history fair project to get to State.
not to call you a liar but do you have any sources that would back that up becasue that would be a great source for my project email me (aerospce@gmail.com)
fancy trying to censor the internet, and concepts such as democracy. can you think of anything more ridiculous? this squashing of humanity can't last forever can it?
am i the only one who finds it ironic that the Peopl's LIBERATION Army came in and killed the protesters who were only quilty of wanting a more liberal government?
Tiananmen Tank Defiance Video Who is that guy? I always wanted to know who he is... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
