Throwing Einstein for a Loop

Discussion in 'Eastern Philosophy' started by kmguru, Dec 18, 2002.

  1. kmguru Staff Member

    She talks about physics like it's cooking. "My strength is to put things together out of nothing," she says, "to take this ingredient and another one there and stick something together." The art is figuring out which ones to use and how to combine them so that when the oven bell dings, the universe comes out just right.
    At 31 years old, Fotini Markopoulou Kalamara is hailed as one of the world's most promising young physicists. She recently accepted a position at the Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics in Waterloo, Ontario (Canada's answer to the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, N.J.). There she works alongside such prominent physicists as Robert Myers and Lee Smolin, hoping to blend Einstein's general relativity with quantum theory to explain the nature of space and time.

    This unification is probably the single greatest challenge of modern physics. String theory has been the predominant contender. It proposes that the building blocks of matter are tiny, one-dimensional strings and that various vibrations of strings play the familiar medley of particles as if they were musical notes.

    Although string theory finds a way to incorporate gravity into a quantum description of matter, some physicists believe that it has shortcomings that prevent it from being the ultimate theory of everything. For one, the theory presupposes up to 26 spatial dimensions, many more than have yet to be experimentally discovered. More fundamental still, whereas strings are fine for describing matter, they do not explain the space in which they wiggle. Newer versions of string theory may fix this problem. But a small band of physicists, including Smolin, Abhay Ashtekar of Pennsylvania State University and Carlo Rovelli of the Theoretical Physics Center in Marseilles, France, place greater stock in a different approach: loop quantum gravity, or LQG.

    More at:

    There are some interesting developments that relates to ancient Hindu philosophy - I will post later.....KMG
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  3. chroot Crackpot killer Registered Senior Member

    How is this Eastern Philosophy?

    - Warren
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  5. EvilPoet I am what I am Registered Senior Member

    The book "The Tao of Physics" looks at the similarities between
    modern physics and eastern mysticism - could be something like
    that. Oh well, guess we will find out more later (as was indicated
    at the bottom of kmguru's post).

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  7. kmguru Staff Member

    OK, here it is...I may not be able to clearly explain but will try...

    ...any spin network has the potential to evolve into infinite new ones, leaving no trace of a casual history...

    Changes in Yuga could be akin to a similar situation where multiple loops of Yuga combine to form the reality...

    "But a spin network represents the entire universe, and that creates a big problem. According to the standard interpretation of quantum mechanics, things remain in a limbo of probability until an observer perceives them. But no lonely observer can find himself beyond the bounds of the universe staring back. How, then, can the universe exist? "That's a whole sticky thing," Markopoulou Kalamara says. "Who looks at the universe?" For her, the answer is: we do. The universe contains its own observers on the inside, represented as nodes in the network. Her idea is that to paint the big picture, you don't need one painter; many will do. Specifically, she realized that the same light cones she had used to bring causal structure into quantum spacetime could concretely define each observer's perspective. "

    The word Maya is associated with reality and is said to be in the minds of the observer, otherwise it does not exist. The question then comes to mind is, can the reality be influenced by the observer? The ancient texts say: yes. Apparently, we can effect the change in a local network as well as in a global network.

    Those who do not wish to make changes can continue on being a part of it with the reality created by the others (The words "we do"). It can be done through Karma Yoga or Bhakti Yoga so as not to unwittingly change the personal reality in a negative way. There are methods through meditation to change the reality in a local and global way.

    The process is similar to prayer (irrespective of religion). Once one learns to effect the change - it is like lifting your hand.

    May be someday, we will learn the exact mechanics of quantum change and use it without thinking about religion. But it is interesting to note that religion and science could agree in this area and reach the same conclusion.

    I hope this makes sense.

    BTW: I have first hand experience in local changes through prayer (by a Christian and by a Hindu).
  8. moonman Registered Senior Member

    This is very very interesting!

    So this theory would imply that the world we experience is somehow created by ourselves and each other in a haphazzard way. Are we making it up as we go along letting our experiences be directly influenced by the will of others from perspectives outside our own?

    I always thought the theory that you infact all your life had full controll of your reality was just another myth. But now that scientific research seems to be pointing in the directions of those very teachings...

  9. EvilPoet I am what I am Registered Senior Member


    What is Yuga?

    Edit: Please disregard this
    question - I figured it out.
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2002
  10. kmguru Staff Member

    IMHO - It is a combined result of the observation. Individuals do have contributions. Whether the weight of that contribution counts and influences and the manner or mechanism - I have been researching for a long time. I kinda guess the mathematics behind it, but because a very large number of factors involved in a time domain and threshold levels - it is difficult to form an algorithm to express the relationships. May be someday with a super computer...

    In a large scale, I think, the change in Russia was due to a combined will of their citizens.
  11. A4Ever Knows where his towel is Registered Senior Member


    Could you give an example of a local change?

  12. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

    sciam rocks.

    I've been thinking about that chick since I read the article. Amazing stuff.

    And regaring Moonman's post about determining your own reality hmm.. how do I say it. One simplistic method is "Life is attitude.. have a good one".

    I know this sounds kind of stupid because it's so blindingly obvious but: If you think life is good then it is. Stupid huh? well, the messed up part about it is the implications in my opinion. when you really start thinking of things as good, it changes your attitude. changes in your attitude reflect back at you through how you think, the people you meet. social endeavors such become easier, people help you more, leading to opportunity. blah blah. I'm just saying that it is really funky that we are self defined in that manner. For instance, I'll never be successful if I never consider myself as such. Most likely that is because I'll never seek success if I do not envision myself as such. I'll likely not be attractive to a woman if I don't consider myself as such. There are a whole shitload of other examples of sheer will changing reality through changing behavior. Maybe I'm not saying anything. Ack, there's something valuable buried in there but it's illusive. Pardon.
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2003
  13. A4Ever Knows where his towel is Registered Senior Member


    did you see the promiscuity thread?

    Someone in there would answer you: "thinking llife is good eh? Treating people right so they will help you. I bet it makes you all fluffy and warm inside. That's not respect. You can't even begin to understand what a real attitude is."

    All pov.
  14. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

    yeah, i posted in it a bunch.. you didn't notice? I'm hurt.

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    Hehe, respect doesn't really matter if the results are the same. You are more charismatic in general when you think life is good. You are appealing. People like to think life is good (though a lot of people are damaged to the point that they can't). In that case, you gravitate towards people that think life is good or appreciate you for thinking so. People who appreciate you do things for you.

    Mind you, I'm grossly generalizing, but there is merit in there I'm sure. I do understand though that I could be wrong about everything.

    I don't know what that means.
  15. A4Ever Knows where his towel is Registered Senior Member

    Yes, I remember, I am sorry.

    First, you were more an understander of promiscuity. Then your wife saw what you were typing and in the next post you said monogamy had its charms

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    Just kidding, I like your broad view.

    Yes... but did you just say that it is all in the mind, everything is point of view, what you make of it?

    Cause that is what pov means: point of view.
  16. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

    hehe.. nah, wifey loves me even though I'm a dumbass. it's amazing. oh, and I was just saying that I shouldn't dog the institution, I still understand promiscuity. I think it's different strokes for different folks like it or not. When it comes to fucking, people are basically complicated animals, that results in a lot of different needs and thusly a lot of needs to be satisfied. People will strive to satisfy those needs. It's sexual econ 101.
    actually, I did just realize that I was being negative. it happens.
    thank you though...

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    hmm... I'm saying you are your pov. you ARE what you make of it. people are attracted to like interests
    i figure it out but it was too late!
  17. kmguru Staff Member

    Stick to the topic guys...
  18. UltiTruth In pursuit... Registered Senior Member

    I actually suspect if the collective prayers during rituals... for example the Pushkaras, which occur once in 12 years for each river have some impact on actually affecting the Rivers. Since the soul is an extension of the supersoul, such a congregation of souls, for a common cause probably would?
    I hope I have understood the topic right!

    It would be interesting to know of your first hand experiences in local changes through prayer, that you mentioned.
  19. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

    can i ask a stupid question

    you said 26 dimentions were more than have been proven

    how many HAVE been proven?

    just the 3 and time?
  20. kmguru Staff Member

    Local changes:

    People have used Yagnya (yajna?) ritual for rain that I have witnessed. I have heard the story of a close friend of mine whose dad used prayer on a very difficult circumstances for rain and got his wish. These are local changes. I have used prayer during extreme difficult circumstances such as job loss, accident, ill health within family towards a positive event that may look like co-incidence but statistically significant cause-effect with respect to time.

    Mahesh Yogi (the TM group) has been documenting crime and prayer events and has a nice claim for before-after observations.

    My view is, there is a strong possibility that our individual consciousness is connected. It is logical to think that the planetary brain (wherever that is) is also connected to a super conscious mind with ours within our solar system. This super conscious mind has its own agenda, but sometimes local events can influence just like an itch or pain or pleasure at the limbs is noticed by your own mind.

    There is a lot of research that needs to be done, as to how and why the power of prayer works and how we as a society can take advantage of such cause-effect for local gain while maintaining the global objective. Our awareness of such phenomena can reduce our sorrow or dificulties better than for animals or plants.

    It is better to swim along the direction of the objectives of the super consciousness than against it. Then we will talk about Universal Consciousness - may be that is why Christians wanted to pass through Jesus (Super Consciousness) to the God (Universal Consciousness).

    Human (Conscious, Sub-conscious) ->Solar System (Super Conscious, Gaia) -> Milky Way (Universal Conscious) ->Universe (Mega Conscious) ->Multi-verse (Giga Conscious)

    These are not physical items - more like energy representations just like your conscious and subconsciou can not be identified physically in your brain - but they are there.
  21. spookz Banned Banned


    'Rituals are games kids play and perhaps later ingrained in the adult mind as the old timers who actually lived in the technology era passed away. "

    do you wanna reconsider old boy? you are not intentionally trying to mislead me eh??

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  22. kmguru Staff Member

    That is a different set of rituals. Games people play have layers upon layers. Such as our government palying games that they call "Spin" to go to war with Iraq...or baseball games or games you play to get a girl in sack.....

    And in the world of religion - stuff you can not see, it gets muddy....or foggy???
  23. moonman Registered Senior Member

    Then it would be possible that reality is the conciousness itself (all reality is subjective right?), our concious is part of the bigger conciousness and the bigger conciousness is simply shattered into so many different perspectives.
    If we consider the idea that 'All is god' this could mean that all the religious pictures of 'god' would be immages of the grander conciousness that incorperates each one of us.
    So perhaps the universe(conciousness) is in a perfect balance all is as it should, or in an imbalance caused by something the reason why there is so much suffereing. (I'm thinking 6 billion different personalitys? Borderline schizofrenic perhaps??)

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